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Re: Working with the set of real numbers

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From Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com>
Date Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:48:03 +0000
Subject Re: Working with the set of real numbers
To Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
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On 12 February 2014 10:07, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> > So, if I understand you right, you want to say that you've not found
>> > a computer that works with the *complete* set of real numbers. Yes?
>>
>> Correct. [...] My point is that computers *do not* work with real
>> numbers, but only ever with some subset thereof [...]
>
> You've done it again: by saying that "computers *do not* work with real
> numbers", that if I find a real number - e.g. the number 4 - your
> position is that, since it's a real number, computers don't work with
> that number.
>
> That's why I think you need to be clear that your point isn't "computers
> don't work with real numbers", but rather "computers work only with a
> limited subset of real numbers".

I think Chris' statement above is pretty clear. Also I didn't find the
original statement confusing and it is a reasonable point to make.

While computers can (with some limitations) do a pretty good job of
integers and rational numbers they cannot truly represent real
computation. Other people have mentioned that there are computer
algebra systems that can handle surds and other algebraic numbers or
some transcendental numbers but none of these comes close to the set
of reals.

This isn't even a question of resource constraints: a digital computer
with infinite memory and computing power would still be limited to
working with countable sets, and the real numbers are just not
countable. The fundamentally discrete nature of digital computers
prevents them from being able to truly handle real numbers and real
computation.

A hypothetical idealised analogue computer would be able to truly do
real arithmetic (but I think in practice the errors would be worse
than single precision floating point).


Oscar

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Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 03:28 -0800
  Re: Finding size of Variable Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-02-04 12:40 +0100
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 04:43 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Asaf Las <roegltd@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 04:53 -0800
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 05:18 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-04 08:09 -0500
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 05:19 -0800
          Re: Finding size of Variable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-04 09:06 -0500
            Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:00 -0800
  Re:Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-04 14:21 -0500
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:15 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-02-05 09:27 +0100
  Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2014-02-04 19:28 +0000
  Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-02-04 13:29 -0600
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:35 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:45 -0800
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 22:00 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-05 11:00 +0000
        Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 22:44 +1100
          Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 02:15 -0800
            Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-06 06:10 -0500
              Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 05:51 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 06:15 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-08 02:48 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-02-07 19:02 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-08 13:17 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 17:45 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 17:25 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 21:56 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-09 13:59 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 22:07 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-08 22:09 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 22:09 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-08 22:16 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 19:30 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-10 06:07 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Asaf Las <roegltd@gmail.com> - 2014-02-10 06:25 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-10 14:39 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-02-10 08:43 -0600
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-11 10:53 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-11 23:49 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 19:06 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 10:57 +0200
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:24 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 11:35 +0200
                Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:17 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 00:35 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 00:46 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:52 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-12 15:24 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) "Gisle Vanem" <gvanem@yahoo.no> - 2014-02-12 17:23 +0100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 19:47 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 11:23 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-04 02:45 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 14:02 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 19:13 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 14:46 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 21:19 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 05:53 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 17:35 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-05 00:05 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 23:43 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 21:49 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 06:58 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:55 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 23:05 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:08 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 08:18 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:02 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:18 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:54 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 10:01 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-04 18:20 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 04:19 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:27 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 04:23 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:15 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 03:41 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:15 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 23:25 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:37 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:57 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-05 00:29 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:56 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:16 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 21:07 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:11 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 13:45 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 17:47 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:09 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-13 03:31 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-13 14:45 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 15:17 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 21:20 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 02:55 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-12 06:55 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-12 14:48 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 00:20 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-12 16:13 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 04:52 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:24 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-12 17:56 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-14 18:26 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 22:44 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 22:58 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:32 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-12 23:23 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 14:04 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:14 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 14:25 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:32 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 12:48 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-13 16:00 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 06:25 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-13 21:47 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 07:08 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 22:05 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-15 00:30 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 16:26 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:38 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-14 19:37 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 17:44 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 07:13 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-14 07:30 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-14 15:09 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 21:29 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 00:00 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 22:21 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 01:16 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-14 03:57 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-10 10:02 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-02-11 14:29 +0000
        Re: Finding size of Variable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-05 22:14 -0500
      Re: Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-05 08:43 -0500
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 06:33 -0800
          Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-05 15:22 +0000

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