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Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2

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On 15/01/2014 16:28, Travis Griggs wrote:
........ of a sequence of graphemes I can use either a sequence of bytes or a 
sequence of codepoints. They are both encodings of the graphemes; what unicode 
says is an encoding doesn't define what encodings are ie mappings from some 
source alphabet to a target alphabet.
>
> But you’re talking about two levels of encoding. One runs on top of the other. So insisting that you be able to call them all encodings, makes the term pointless, because now it’s ambiguous as to what you’re referring to. Are you referring to encoding in the sense of representing code points with bytes? Or are you referring to what the unicode guys call “forms”?
>
> For example, the NFC form of ‘ñ’ is ’\u00F1’. ‘nThe NFD form represents the exact same grapheme, but is ‘\u006e\u0303’. You can call them encodings if you want, but I echo Ned’s sentiment that you keep that to yourself. Conventionally, they’re different forms, not different encodings. You can encode either form with an encoding, e.g.
>
> '\u00F1'.encode('utf8’)
> '\u00F1'.encode('utf16’)
>
> '\u006e\u0303'.encode('utf8’)
> '\u006e\u0303'.encode('utf16')
>

I think about these as encodings, because that's what they are mathematically, 
logically & practically. I can encode the target grapheme sequence as a sequence 
of bytes using a particular 'unicode encoding' eg utf8 or a sequence of code points.

The fact that unicoders want to take over the meaning of encoding is not relevant.

In my utf8 bash shell the python print() takes one encoding (python3 str) and 
translates that to the stdout encoding which happens to be utf8 and passes that 
to the shell which probably does a lot of work to render the result as graphical 
symbols (or graphemes).

I'm not anti unicode, that's just an assignment of identity to some symbols. 
Coding the values of the ids is a separate issue. It's my belief that we don't 
need more than the byte level encoding to represent unicode. One of the claims 
made for python3 unicode is that it somehow eliminates the problems associated 
with other encodings eg utf8, but in fact they will remain until we force 
printers/designers to stop using complicated multi-codepoint graphemes. I 
suspect that won't happen.
-- 
Robin Becker

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'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-01-11 23:50 -0800
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-01-12 09:31 +0100
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2014-01-12 10:00 +0100
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-01-12 07:17 -0500
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-12 12:33 +0000
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-01-12 18:33 +0000
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2014-01-13 09:27 +0100
    Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-01-13 01:54 -0800
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-13 21:26 +1100
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-13 10:38 +0000
        Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-13 21:57 +1100
          Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-01-13 08:24 -0800
            Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-13 17:02 +0000
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-01-13 08:58 -0700
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2014-01-13 19:37 +0100
      Mistake or Troll (was Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-01-13 18:05 -0500
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-15 12:00 +0000
    Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-16 00:43 +0000
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 12:26 +1100
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-01-15 07:13 -0500
    Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-01-15 06:55 -0800
      Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 02:14 +1100
        Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-16 00:32 +0000
          Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-16 10:51 +0000
            Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-16 14:07 +0000
              Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-01-16 09:24 -0600
          Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 21:58 +1100
          Re: 'StraÃYe' ('Strasse') and Python 2 "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-01-16 14:06 +0200
          Re: 'StraÃYe' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-16 13:03 +0000
          Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 13:30 -0800
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-15 12:50 +0000
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2014-01-15 08:28 -0800
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-15 16:55 +0000
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 04:14 +1100
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-01-15 17:28 +0000
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-01-15 11:32 -0700
  Re: 'Straße' ('Strasse') and Python 2 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-01-15 19:27 -0500

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