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Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?

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Date Wed, 13 May 2015 03:26:29 +1000
Subject Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> writes:
>>Is that a true array or a linked list?  "It's a high level language,
>>that's just an implementation detail." Yes, but it's an implementation
>>detail that determines whether even the simple act of looking up element
>>n is O(1) or O(n).
>
>   The complexity is given in the documentation of high-level languages.
>
>   For example, from the documentation of the Java standard library:
>
>       »This implementation provides constant-time performance
>       for the basic operations (get and put),« (java.util.HashMap)
>
>   C++:
>
>       Section 23.2.1 specifies the complexity, such as »compile time«,
>       »constant«, »linear« for container operations.
>
>   But the abstraction mechanisms (templates, polymorphism)
>   often allow one to change the implementation quite easily.

It isn't always given in the docs. Sometimes it's not even a promise;
back when MicroPython was debating the implementation of Unicode
strings, there was a lengthy discussion on python-dev about whether
it's okay for string subscripting to be O(n) instead of O(1), and the
final decision was that yes, that's an implementation detail. (UTF-8
internal string representation, so iterating over a string would still
yield characters in overall O(n), but iterating up to the string's
length and subscripting for each character would become O(n*n) on
uPy.)

ChrisA

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Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Seberino <cseberino@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 13:43 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-05-10 20:59 +0000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-11 00:16 +0300
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:37 -0600
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? beliavsky@aol.com - 2015-05-11 12:01 -0700
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 12:04 +1000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:04 -0600
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 22:38 -0700
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:42 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 16:57 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 02:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:18 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 02:05 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:14 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:02 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:47 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 14:54 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 22:56 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:17 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:31 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 19:22 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:08 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 17:04 +0100
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:11 -0700
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-05-12 17:03 +0000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:15 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-12 22:52 +0300
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:26 +1000
                uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:23 +1000
                Re: uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:13 +1000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 15:00 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 01:24 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:11 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 21:46 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:49 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-13 17:56 +0000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 12:30 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 19:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:27 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:44 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 09:26 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 11:07 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:38 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-13 22:55 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-14 11:40 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-14 03:35 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-14 00:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:25 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 21:24 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 11:48 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 22:50 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 20:14 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-13 19:19 +1200
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:33 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:03 -0700
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:29 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 12:11 +1000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-11 13:59 +1000
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 21:42 -0700
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:04 -0500
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-11 14:35 +0000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:29 -0700

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