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Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?

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Date Wed, 13 May 2015 03:15:49 +1000
Subject Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 3:03 AM, Rob Gaddi
<rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> wrote:
> A firm grasp of C will make you a better programmer in any language, even
> if you haven't written a line of it in 20 years.  It's the ability to
> read a map.  A lack of C is the person blindly following their GPS and
> hoping for the best.

That's as may be, but I would still not recommend it as a first
language. It's possible to explain algorithmic complexity with a high
level language; Python's data types generally have predictable costs
associated with them, although a lot of them aren't actually language
guarantees (I could imagine a Python implementation using an O(log n)
tree instead of an amortized O(1) hash table for its dict, if other
tradeoffs make it worthwhile); at any rate, you can always just
construct your own fundamental data structures if you want to teach
what a linked list is good for, or what a splay tree can do for you. C
knowledge is good, but first get to know the broader art of
programming, and then get to know C. Learning low-level languages too
soon will end up binding your mind to a particular CPU architecture.
That happened to me in a big way; I got to thinking about everything
in terms of how an 80x86 CPU would deal with it, without any
comprehension of some of the modern aspects of low-level programming
like pipeline management and cache locality. It was quite the
eye-opener when I started hand-optimizing my C compiler's output on a
more modern chip, and found that my improvements... uhh, added about
50% to the run time. That's when I stopped doing any assembly language
work, and just let the compiler do its magic :)

ChrisA

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Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Seberino <cseberino@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 13:43 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-05-10 20:59 +0000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-11 00:16 +0300
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:37 -0600
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? beliavsky@aol.com - 2015-05-11 12:01 -0700
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 12:04 +1000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:04 -0600
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 22:38 -0700
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:42 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 16:57 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 02:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:18 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 02:05 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:14 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:02 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:47 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 14:54 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 22:56 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:17 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:31 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 19:22 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:08 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 17:04 +0100
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:11 -0700
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-05-12 17:03 +0000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:15 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-12 22:52 +0300
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:26 +1000
                uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:23 +1000
                Re: uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:13 +1000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 15:00 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 01:24 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:11 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 21:46 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:49 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-13 17:56 +0000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 12:30 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 19:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:27 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:44 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 09:26 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 11:07 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:38 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-13 22:55 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-14 11:40 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-14 03:35 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-14 00:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:25 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 21:24 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 11:48 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 22:50 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 20:14 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-13 19:19 +1200
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:33 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:03 -0700
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:29 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 12:11 +1000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-11 13:59 +1000
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 21:42 -0700
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:04 -0500
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-11 14:35 +0000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:29 -0700

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