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Re: Closures in leu of pointers?

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From Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Subject Re: Closures in leu of pointers?
Date Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:53:35 -0400
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On 6/29/2013 3:47 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 12:20:45 -0700, cts.private.yahoo wrote:

>> Huh? What language are you programming in? Python doesn't have implied
>> scoping in non-intuitive ways.
>
> def f(x):
>      def g(y):
>          print(x)
>          x = y
>
> Within g, the variable x is implicitly local,

The assignment looks pretty explicit to me ;-|. But to each his own on 
'plicitness.

> which is non-intuitive
> since without the assignment it would not be.

I think the problem people have is this. Python is *not* an interpreted 
language in the traditional sense: read a line, interpret and execute 
it. It is compiled, and the compilation of functions is a two pass 
affair. The first pass classifies all names. The second pass generates 
code based on the classification of the first pass. This is not part of 
the grammar, but implied (required) by the semantic description.

If, in the general case, the compiler requires two passes to understand 
a function body, then *so do people*#. This requirement is what trips up 
people who are either not used to the idea of two-pass compilation or do 
not cognize that the language requires it.

# The alternative for either program or people is a 1-pass + 
backtracking process where all understandings are kept provisional until 
the end of the body and revised as required. 2 passes are simpler.

That said, writing deceptive but functionin code is usually bad style. 
Writing code that looks functional but is buggy is worse.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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Thread

Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 02:34 -0700
  Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 10:42 +0100
  Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-06-29 12:01 +0200
    Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 04:21 -0700
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 04:44 -0700
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-06-29 14:12 +0200
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 05:26 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-29 15:37 +0100
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 07:48 -0700
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 07:56 -0600
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 12:36 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 08:02 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-29 19:02 +0200
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 10:33 -0700
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 11:37 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 12:58 -0600
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 18:59 +0000
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 18:51 +0000
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 13:04 -0600
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 12:11 -0700
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 12:35 -0600
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 19:19 +0000
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Tim Chase <tim@thechases.com> - 2013-06-29 14:42 -0500
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-30 01:41 +0000
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 21:02 +0100
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 16:02 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 18:45 +0000
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 19:00 +0000
        Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 12:20 -0700
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-29 19:33 +0000
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 12:34 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 13:47 -0600
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-29 16:53 -0400
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 01:56 -0700
                Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-30 11:22 +0000
                Re: Closures in leu of pointers? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 04:42 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 15:21 -0600
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? cts.private.yahoo@gmail.com - 2013-06-29 14:30 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-30 00:32 -0400
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 15:08 +1000
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 00:36 -0700
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 23:46 -0600
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 14:57 +1000
              Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 07:36 +0000
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 15:59 +1000
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-30 02:11 -0400
            Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 00:24 -0600
          Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 16:03 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-29 13:23 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 12:07 +0200
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 11:13 -0600
      Re: Closures in leu of pointers? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 11:18 -0600

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