Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #92418

Re: Testing random

Path csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.redatomik.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
X-Original-To python-list@python.org
Delivered-To python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status OK 0.068
X-Spam-Evidence '*H*': 0.86; '*S*': 0.00; 'context': 0.05; '*not*': 0.07; 'differently': 0.07; 'thread': 0.10; 'wed,': 0.15; '111111111': 0.16; '123456789': 0.16; 'distinct': 0.16; 'equal.': 0.16; 'subject:random': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; 'instance,': 0.18; '>>>': 0.20; 'are.': 0.22; 'occurs': 0.22; 'am,': 0.23; '2015': 0.23; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.24; 'order.': 0.27; 'least': 0.27; 'sequence': 0.27; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.28; "doesn't": 0.28; 'does,': 0.29; 'once.': 0.29; 'no,': 0.29; "skip:' 10": 0.30; 'getting': 0.33; 'ordered': 0.33; 'picking': 0.33; 'equal': 0.34; 'received:google.com': 0.34; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.35; 'unicode': 0.35; 'but': 0.36; 'there': 0.36; 'possible': 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'where': 0.40; 'some': 0.40; 'here.': 0.61; 'times': 0.61; 'more': 0.62; 'thomas': 0.63; 'total': 0.64; '>>>>>': 0.66; 'repeat': 0.67; 'overall': 0.70; 'lack': 0.76; '\xe2\x80\x93': 0.77; '*no': 0.84; 'irrelevant': 0.84; 'observed': 0.84; 'subject:Testing': 0.84; 'to:name:python': 0.84; 'hundred': 0.96
DKIM-Signature v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3c1HHWgsvNw/vjL6BgVJB3Rq8lHEFV6aSFjP/IGhIPM=; b=H5Yam1kZTyFoYd9D7hc1zDorZFSlJZuiG3+bYxDfoXrCyLsI8D6ByxFdJwRiGKIa+f Kc/Vh9p+MpFuhr029f+/IcomNzxWcGnoDwsiSAQT9dPuizreyaRUlMs8hwZFRZ31ZW22 2fllzc6Ux5w0oga0YJOYppHPulwe2Dw60DOmf2Q52jSU9Tp0eokSNN7KFieGDQeSuMoH /b+YrvPvd1MWFOG4n5ydD4jyLHBN+MaUHkiTDH4GFfeyCNs76r2sJYF91A1HLUQm4RC1 7FNDU0Vf3Vu56Ri2+dUq6rnmDtgAKoc2JK1UytenzreORMNG90XV3S+Bf6kKdrhtoDUI BJHg==
X-Received by 10.170.167.2 with SMTP id j2mr5791069ykd.113.1433959408611; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version 1.0
In-Reply-To <16299015.icEhCTIHP8@PointedEars.de>
References <87oaksowwg.fsf@Equus.decebal.nl> <1451048.pW9z17ilMA@PointedEars.de> <mailman.242.1433677915.13271.python-list@python.org> <3158703.Lr4HFMbMOd@PointedEars.de> <mailman.257.1433694323.13271.python-list@python.org> <1656356.OjxBvjpJ5d@PointedEars.de> <mailman.259.1433695485.13271.python-list@python.org> <5515034.V7dcXEWAvK@PointedEars.de> <lf5sia3bakh.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> <1583276.2lplL8rY5W@PointedEars.de> <lf5r3pmejgh.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> <16299015.icEhCTIHP8@PointedEars.de>
From Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date Wed, 10 Jun 2015 12:02:48 -0600
Subject Re: Testing random
To Python <python-list@python.org>
Content-Type text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding quoted-printable
X-BeenThere python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version 2.1.20+
Precedence list
List-Id General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.354.1433959416.13271.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
Lines 44
NNTP-Posting-Host 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace 1433959416 news.xs4all.nl 2823 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:37268
X-Complaints-To abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:92418

Show key headers only | View raw

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
> Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn writes:
>>> Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>>>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn writes:
>>>>>   8 3 6 3 1 2 6 8 2 1 6.
>>>>
>>>> There are more than four hundred thousand ways to get those numbers
>>>> in some order.
>>>>
>>>> (11! / 2! / 2! / 2! / 3! / 2! = 415800)
>>>
>>> Fallacy.  Order is irrelevant here.
>>
>> You need to consider every sequence that leads to the observed counts.
>
> No, you need _not_, because – I repeat – the probability of getting a
> sequence of length n from a set of 9 numbers whereas the probability of
> picking a number is evenly distributed, is (1∕9)ⁿ [(1/9)^n, or 1/9 to the
> nth, for those who do to see it because of lack of Unicode support at their
> system].  *Always.*  *No matter* which numbers are in it.  *No matter* in
> which order they are.  AISB, order is *irrelevant* here.  *Completely.*

Order is relevant because, for instance, there are n differently
ordered sequences that contain n-1 1s and one 2, while there is only
one sequence that contains n 1s. While each of those individual
sequences are indeed equiprobable, the overall probability of getting
a sequence that contains n-1 1s and one 2 is n times the probability
of getting a sequence that contains n 1s.

The context of this whole thread is about the probability of getting a
sequence where every number occurs at least once. The order that they
occur in doesn't matter, but the number of possible permutations does,
because every one of those permutations is a distinct sequence
contributing an equal amount to the total overall probability.

The probability of 123456789 and 111111111 are equal. The probability
of a sequence containing all nine numbers and a sequence containing
only 1s are *not* equal.

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Testing random Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> - 2015-06-07 08:27 +0200
  Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 12:40 +0200
    Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 21:51 +1000
      Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 17:51 +0200
        Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:25 +1000
          Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 18:36 +0200
            Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:44 +1000
              Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 20:23 +0200
                Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 04:52 +1000
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 21:41 +0200
                Re: Testing random Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2015-06-07 22:08 +0300
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 21:29 +0200
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 15:44 -0400
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 22:09 +0200
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 16:41 -0400
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 22:59 +0200
                Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 11:26 +1000
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 21:34 -0400
                Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 11:42 +1000
                Re: Testing random MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-06-08 02:49 +0100
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 21:57 -0400
                Re: Testing random Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2015-06-08 10:40 +0300
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-10 19:03 +0200
                Re: Testing random sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-10 10:52 -0700
                Re: Testing random Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2015-06-10 23:00 +0300
                Re: Testing random Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 12:02 -0600
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-12 23:32 +0200
                Re: Testing random alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-06-12 21:46 +0000
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-12 17:52 -0400
                Re: Testing random Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-12 16:00 -0600
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-13 00:09 +0200
                Re: Testing random sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-12 15:55 -0700
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-12 18:57 -0400
                Re: Testing random Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-13 08:53 +0100
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-10 14:26 -0400
                Re: Testing random Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-06-07 14:21 -0700
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-16 21:18 +0200
                Re: Testing random random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-16 16:23 -0400
                Re: Testing random Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-06-16 13:48 -0700
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-16 23:57 +0200
                Re: Testing random sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-16 15:30 -0700
                Re: Testing random Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 16:58 -0600
                Re: Testing random Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-17 11:28 +0200
                Re: Testing random Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-06-16 16:26 -0700
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-17 01:45 +0200
                Re: Testing random sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-16 17:36 -0700
                Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 11:01 +1000
                Re: Testing random Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-06-16 18:32 -0700
                Re: Testing random Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-17 09:41 +0100
                Re: Testing random Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-17 14:04 +0000
                Re: Testing random Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 09:01 -0600
                Re: Testing random MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-06-17 01:42 +0100
                Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-17 08:53 +0200
                Re: Testing random Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-06-17 09:22 +0200
                Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 17:28 +1000
                Re: Testing random Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2015-06-17 08:30 +0100
                Re: Testing random Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> - 2015-06-17 11:57 +0200
                Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-17 01:36 +0000
                Re: Testing random Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-17 12:33 +0200
                Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-17 22:47 +1000
                Re: Testing random Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-17 15:50 +0200
                Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-17 01:35 +0000
                Re: Testing random Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2015-06-17 07:41 +0300
                Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 11:11 +1000
            Re: Testing random Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 11:07 -0600
            Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 03:20 +1000
            Re: Testing random "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2015-06-07 10:36 -0700
            Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 04:28 +1000
              Re: Testing random Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 04:40 +1000
        Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 04:24 +1000
  Re: Testing random Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-06-07 12:41 +0200
  Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 22:52 +1000
    Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 23:06 +1000
    Re: Testing random Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-06-07 15:35 +0200
      Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 18:36 +0200
        Re: Testing random Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-06-07 18:48 +0200
          Re: Testing random Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 22:15 +0200
      Re: Testing random Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 11:35 +1000
  Re: Testing random Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-06-07 14:53 +0200
  Re: Testing random Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-07 11:04 -0400

csiph-web