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Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?

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From Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date Sun, 10 May 2015 19:37:38 -0600
Subject Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?
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On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Scheme is my favorite language. I think, however, it is a pretty
> advanced language and requires a pretty solid basis in programming and
> computer science.
>
> Python, in contrast, is a great introductory programming language. Sure,
> you *can* get quite advanced with it, too, but you can get quite a bit
> of fun stuff done with just the basics.

MIT famously used Scheme in their introductory course for more than
two decades. Although they switched to Python a few years ago, I don't
think they did so because there was anything wrong with Scheme.
Wikipedia informs me that Yale and Grinnell are still using Scheme for
their introductory courses.

> Of course, you could introduce Scheme with similar simplifications.
> However, such simplifications (say, iterative constructs) are
> nonidiomatic in Scheme. The students should not get into bad habits
> that they need to be weaned off of later.

You don't need iterative constructs to teach an introductory course.
The full text of SICP (the "wizard book") is available on the web for
anyone to read at https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/. I don't think it
ever even *mentions* "iterative constructs". Where it distinguishes
recursive algorithms from iterative ones, recursive syntax is used in
both cases.

>> I'm thinking half way into the semester, instead of moving into
>> intermediate Scheme, perhaps that is a good time to switch to Python?

No, stick with one language for at least the first course. Needing to
learn the syntax and semantics of *two* programming languages,
especially two such different ones, is just going to distract students
from the fundamental concepts that the introductory class is intended
to teach.

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Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Seberino <cseberino@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 13:43 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-05-10 20:59 +0000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-11 00:16 +0300
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:37 -0600
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? beliavsky@aol.com - 2015-05-11 12:01 -0700
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 12:04 +1000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:04 -0600
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 22:38 -0700
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 23:42 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 16:57 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 02:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:18 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 02:05 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:14 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:02 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:47 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 14:54 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 22:56 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:17 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:31 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 19:22 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:08 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 17:04 +0100
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:11 -0700
            Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-05-12 17:03 +0000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:15 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-12 22:52 +0300
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 03:26 +1000
                uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 11:23 +1000
                Re: uPy Unicode [was Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp blah blah blah] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:13 +1000
              Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 15:00 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 01:24 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:11 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 21:46 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 23:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:49 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-13 17:56 +0000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 12:30 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 19:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:27 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:35 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 07:44 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 09:26 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 11:07 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 15:38 -0600
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:16 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-13 22:55 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-14 11:40 +1000
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-14 03:35 +0100
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-14 00:38 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:25 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:36 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 21:24 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 11:48 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-13 22:50 +0300
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 20:14 -0700
                Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-13 19:19 +1200
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:33 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:03 -0700
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:29 -0700
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 12:11 +1000
  Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-11 13:59 +1000
    Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 21:42 -0700
      Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:04 -0500
        Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-11 14:35 +0000
          Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:29 -0700

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