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Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages

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Date Sat, 23 May 2015 14:21:05 +1000
Subject Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Cc Python <python-list@python.org>
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On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sigh. I blame this as much on the browser.  There's no inherent reason
>> why a connection to a site secured with a self-signed certificate is
>> insecure.  In fact it's definitely not.
>
> Sure it is. Without some prior reason to trust the certificate, the
> certificate is meaningless. How is the browser to distinguish between
> a legitimate self-signed cert and a self-signed cert presented by an
> attacker conducting a man-in-the-middle attack?
>
> There is still some value in TLS with a self-signed certificate in
> that at least the connection is encrypted and can't be eavesdropped by
> an attacker who can only read the channel, but there is no assurance
> that the party you're communicating with actually owns the public key
> that you've been presented.

To be fair, certificates never actually tell you that the owner is
legitimate - all they do is move the problem. Self-signed certs move
the problem to "how do you get a guaranteed copy of this exact
server's certificate", which makes it an out-of-band issue (if you
meet someone you know in person and get a copy of the cert on a USB
stick, then manually install it, you can be sure it's safe);
externally-signed certs move the problem to the certificate chain and
its reliability (how well do the CSAs check ownership prior to issuing
a certificate?). Both are still problematic, just in different ways.

Self-signed certs are ideal if you're packaging your own client - you
could keep the IP address and certificate in the same VCS repository.
Anyone who can change the cert can also change the IP address, so you
lose no security there. But they're way WAY more hassle for https on
the public internet.

ChrisA

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Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 00:58 +1000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 01:29 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-22 10:57 -0700
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:40 -0500
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:40 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-22 21:54 -0400
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:12 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:12 -0500
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-23 13:26 -0400
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 21:31 -0600
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 08:55 +0200
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:21 -0500
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 15:24 +0200
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 20:05 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-24 20:29 +0200
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 15:44 +0300
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 15:17 +0200
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 00:00 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 19:53 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 03:41 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 22:02 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 20:26 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-24 18:26 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:35 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-25 09:57 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-05-25 11:39 +0200
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 21:09 +1000
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 21:00 -0600
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-24 11:23 +0300
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:10 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages amber <amber.of.luxor@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 04:11 +0000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:11 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:11 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-23 14:20 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:30 -0600
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-05-23 11:10 +0000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-05-23 06:34 -0500
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 21:40 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 20:57 -0600
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 01:22 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:29 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:49 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:49 +1000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:29 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:55 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:28 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:21 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-05-23 14:33 +0200
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 23:01 +1000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 23:12 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 23:37 -0700
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-23 06:35 -0700
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 00:09 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 10:21 +0200
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 21:42 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 22:08 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 23:24 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 00:47 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 10:58 -0400
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 02:28 +1000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2015-05-22 16:31 +0000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-22 17:57 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:41 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2015-05-23 20:25 +0000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-22 17:47 +0000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 04:11 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-05-22 19:19 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-05-22 21:14 +0200
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 11:36 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-22 20:34 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 13:56 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-22 23:34 +0300
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-05-22 15:55 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-05-22 14:15 -0700
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 15:20 -0600
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-22 16:00 -0700
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 21:33 -0600

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