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Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages

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From Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date Fri, 22 May 2015 22:29:52 -0600
Subject Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages
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On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 05/22/2015 07:54 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> >> On 5/22/2015 5:40 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Lo these many years ago, I argued that Python is a whole lot more than
>> >>> a programming language:
>> >>>
>> >>>     https://www.tundraware.com/TechnicalNotes/Python-Is-Middleware/
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps something at tundraware needs updating.
>> >> '''
>> >> This Connection is Untrusted
>> >>
>> >> You have asked Firefox to connect securely to www.tundraware.com, but we
>> >> can't confirm that your connection is secure.
>> >> […]
>
>> Without some prior reason to trust the certificate, the certificate is
>> meaningless. How is the browser to distinguish between a legitimate
>> self-signed cert and a self-signed cert presented by an attacker
>> conducting a man-in-the-middle attack?
>
> Any unencrypted HTTP (“http://…”) connection has the same problem. Yet
> the same browsers don't present a big scary warning for those?
>
> The flaw in the browser is that it doesn't complain when an unencrypted
> HTTP connection is established, but only complains when an *encrypted*
> connection is made to a site with a self-signed certificate.
>
>> There is still some value in TLS with a self-signed certificate in
>> that at least the connection is encrypted and can't be eavesdropped by
>> an attacker who can only read the channel, but there is no assurance
>> that the party you're communicating with actually owns the public key
>> that you've been presented.
>
> Right. By that logic, let's advocate for browsers to present a big
> intrusive warning for every HTTP connection that has no SSL layer or
> certificate.
>
> I will agree that a self-signed certificate presents the problem of how
> to verify the certificate automatically.
>
> Where I disagree is that this is somehow less secure than a completely
> *unencrypted* HTTP connection. No, the opposite is true.

I don't disagree with you. There *should* be scary warnings for plain
HTTP connections (although there is a counter-argument that many sites
don't need any encryption and HTTPS would just be wasteful in those
cases). The fact that browsers don't yet provide those warnings
doesn't change anything that I wrote above.

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Thread

Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 00:58 +1000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 01:29 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-22 10:57 -0700
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:40 -0500
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:40 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-22 21:54 -0400
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:12 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:12 -0500
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-23 13:26 -0400
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 21:31 -0600
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 08:55 +0200
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:21 -0500
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 15:24 +0200
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 20:05 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-24 20:29 +0200
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 15:44 +0300
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-05-23 15:17 +0200
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 00:00 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 19:53 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 03:41 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-23 22:02 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 20:26 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-24 18:26 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:35 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-25 09:57 +0300
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-05-25 11:39 +0200
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 21:09 +1000
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 21:00 -0600
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-24 11:23 +0300
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:10 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages amber <amber.of.luxor@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 04:11 +0000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:11 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:11 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-23 14:20 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:30 -0600
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-05-23 11:10 +0000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-05-23 06:34 -0500
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 21:40 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 20:57 -0600
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 01:22 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:29 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 22:49 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:49 +1000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-23 06:29 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:55 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:28 +1000
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 14:21 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-05-23 14:33 +0200
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 23:01 +1000
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 23:12 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 23:37 -0700
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-23 06:35 -0700
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-24 00:09 +1000
          Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-06-07 10:21 +0200
            Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 21:42 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 22:08 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 23:24 +1000
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 00:47 +1000
              Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-07 10:58 -0400
                Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-08 02:28 +1000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2015-05-22 16:31 +0000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-22 17:57 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2015-05-22 16:41 -0500
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2015-05-23 20:25 +0000
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-22 17:47 +0000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 04:11 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-05-22 19:19 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-05-22 21:14 +0200
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-23 11:36 +1000
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-22 20:34 +0100
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 13:56 -0600
      Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-22 23:34 +0300
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-05-22 15:55 -0500
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-05-22 14:15 -0700
        Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 15:20 -0600
  Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-22 16:00 -0700
    Re: Ah Python, you have spoiled me for all other languages Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 21:33 -0600

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