Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #84491

Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution

Show key headers only | View raw

On 1/24/15, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Fetchinson . wrote:
>
>> On 1/23/15, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> [...]
>>> Cobra is especially close to Python-like syntax, and supports unit tests
>>> as well:
>>>
>>>
>>>     def sqroot(i as int) as float
>>>         require
>>>            i > 0
>>>         ensure
>>>            result > 0
>>>         tests
>>>            assert sqroot(25) == 5.0
>>>         body
>>>             ...
>>>
>>> It would be nice to be able to include at least *some* tests right there
>>> in the code rather than in a separate file.
>>
>> I completely agree. A cobra-style type hinting implementation would
>> satisfy everyone who doesn't want to make function signatures noisy
>> (including me) and would also satisfy those who advocate for the
>> actual feature (type hinting) without worrying much about the
>> implementation detail. These two groups are overlapping by the way :)
>
> I don't understand this. Cobra's type-hints are right there in the function
> signature, just like Python annotations.
>
>
> # Cobra
> def sqroot(i as int) as float
>
> # Python
> def sqroot(i:int)->float:

You are right. This aspect is pretty close, what I had in mind, but
expressed myself poorly is this idiom in cobra:

def myfunc( a, b )
    require
        something_about( a, b )
    ensure
        something_about_the_return_value

Yes, type hinting and arbitrary constraints on the function arguments
and return types are different things, but closely related. I'd say it
makes sense to combine the two.

>
> Cobra's use of "as" clashes with Python. In Python, "as" is used for
> name-binding:
>
> import module as name
> with open('file') as f
> except Exception as e
>
> but apart from that minor difference, they're virtually identical.
>
>
>> In any case, I'm pretty sure it was said before, but I can't really
>> find it anywhere, can someone tell me what the rationale is for
>> *function signature* type hinting?
>
> The basic principle is that things which are related should be found
> together. The further away they are, the worse.
>
> Bad:
> - the parameter name and the type are in different files
>
> Better:
> - the parameter name and the type are only a few lines apart
>
> Best:
> - the parameter name and type are right next to each other
>
>
> The closer they are, the easier it is to keep them in sync, and the easier
> it is to see the relevant information at a glance. Putting them together
> also means that you don't have to repeat the argument name:
>
> int n
> def spam(n): ...
>
> versus
>
> def spam(n:int): ...
>
>
> Those reasons are why decorators have the syntax which they do:
>
> @decorator
> def spam(n):
>     do_this()
>     do_that()
>     do_something_else()
>
>
> is better than the old way of using decorators:
>
> def spam(n):
>     do_this()
>     do_that()
>     do_something_else()
>
> spam = decorator(spam)
>
>
> The decorator is only a single line away from the signature, and you don't
> have to repeat the name.
>
>
> We can see this at work in Pascal. Pascal functions have type declarations
> in the signature, and variable declarations between the signature and the
> body:
>
>
> function sqroot(arg: Integer): Real;
>   var
>     x: Integer;
>     y: Real;
>     z: Something_Else;
>   begin
>     do_this(1, 2);
>     do_that(3, 4);
>     do_something_else(5, 6);
>     x := some expression;  { what's the type of x again? }
>   end;
>
>
> The declarations in the signature work very well and are easy to use, but
> the "var" section, not so much. Especially in large functions, the place
> where you declare the variable and its type, and the place where you first
> use it, can be separated by many lines. This makes maintenance and reading
> of the code more difficult.
>
> Newer languages like Java let you declare the variable the first time you
> use it:
>
>     int x = some expression;
>
> and you don't have to search very far to find out what sort of thing x is,
> it is right there.
>
>
>
> --
> Steven
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-22 17:15 -0800
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-01-23 03:22 +0000
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-01-22 22:22 -0500
    Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 11:23 -0800
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-01-24 22:14 +0100
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-01-22 19:23 -0800
    Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 11:36 -0800
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 14:59 +1100
    Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 11:48 -0800
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 06:59 +1100
        Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 12:59 -0800
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 22:02 +0100
        Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 13:59 -0800
          Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 23:42 +0100
            Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 23:45 +0100
              Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-01-23 14:52 -0800
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 00:14 +0100
              Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-24 01:52 +0200
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-24 16:29 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 16:38 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-24 17:36 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 17:47 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-24 11:27 +0200
            Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 15:39 -0800
            Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-25 00:29 +1100
              Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 15:09 +0100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 15:32 +0100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-25 03:05 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Marco Buttu <marco.buttu@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 15:25 +0100
              Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 08:41 -0800
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-25 04:26 +1100
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-01-24 17:36 +0000
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-24 09:37 -0800
                Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 06:59 +1100
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-01-23 00:03 -0500
    Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-23 16:59 +1100
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2015-01-23 14:23 +0100
        Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 12:21 -0800
          Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 22:12 +0100
            Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 14:26 -0800
        Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-24 17:21 +1100
          Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-01-24 06:47 -0600
            Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-25 00:40 +1100
              Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-01-24 09:06 -0500
          Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2015-01-24 22:01 +0100
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 04:11 +1100
      Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2015-01-23 22:07 +0100
  Re: Python Sanity Proposal: Type Hinting Solution Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 16:31 +1100

csiph-web