Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar

From	Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar
Date	2016-03-29 16:08 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.154.1459260611.28225.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	<CABbU2U_DsSC=6d0HOwgGnzQZ0=r6U2sf_zOJP0U_w7_i0RrOKQ@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.92.1459101740.28225.python-list@python.org> <56f8836b$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

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Op 28-03-16 om 03:05 schreef Steven D'Aprano:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 05:01 am, Marco S. wrote:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>> The point you might have missed is that treating lists as if they were
>>> mappings violates at least one critical property of mappings: that the
>>> relationship between keys and values are stable.
>>
>> This is true for immutable maps, but for mutable ones, you can simply do
> No, it is true for mutable maps too.
>
> When you add a new key:value to a dict, the other key:value pairs don't
> change. That is the whole point of a mapping! Of course you can
> deliberately change the value by re-assignment:
>
>     map[key] = new_value
>
> but that's not what I'm talking about. When you add a NEW key, the OTHER
> keys DON'T change. That is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to a mapping. Anything which
> lacks that property is not a mapping.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

> The relationship between the index of a value and the value in a sequence is
> not stable. Inserting a new value can change the "key"(actually index) of
> some or all of the existing values.

Which is not simply adding a key. Inserting a new value is IMO more like
doing an update.

>  The whole point of sequences is that
> the position of values is NOT stable: they are intended to move around.

I find that language too strong. The lists I use are generally stable.
Does that mean I'm using lists in a way not intended.

>  You
> can sort them, reverse them, delete them, insert new values, and the others
> will move around to make room. If you think of the index as a key, this is
> completely the opposite behaviour of mappings.

Not really. IMO a mapping is just a surjective function and sometimes a
list is a perfectly fine way to implement such a function.

The point I think the OP tries to make is that sometimes you need to write
a function that takes a surjective function as argument and produces some
result, but you just don't care whether this function is implemented as
a map or as a sequence.

Suppose you want to know how many times each value occurs and want to
map that. As it is you have to write something like the following.

def count(l):
    counted = defaultdict(int)
    try:
        itr = l.values()
    except AttributeError:
        itr = iter(l)
    for v in itr:
        counted[v] += 1
    return counted

What would be the big problem if a values method would be available
on a list which returned the iterator and if an items method would
be like calling enumerate?

Thread

Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar "Marco S." <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-27 20:01 +0200
  Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-28 12:05 +1100
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-29 16:08 +0200
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 01:31 +1100
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marco Sulla <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-30 00:29 +0200
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-03-29 20:55 -0400
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 11:56 +1100
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-29 23:38 -0400
      Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 16:43 +1100
        Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 16:57 +1100
        Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 10:12 +0300
          Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 21:17 +1100
            Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 13:28 +0300
              Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-30 12:34 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 13:57 +0300
              Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 23:22 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-30 15:12 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 02:56 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-30 21:07 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 13:40 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-30 19:45 -0700
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 17:45 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-31 09:52 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 21:36 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-31 12:51 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-31 13:22 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 22:57 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-31 15:36 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 23:48 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-31 17:02 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 04:19 -0400
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-31 15:55 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-31 17:19 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-31 15:08 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 06:42 -0700
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 00:11 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-31 14:17 +0100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-31 09:27 -0400
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-31 17:13 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-03-31 13:41 -0400
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-31 15:12 +0100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-04-01 09:59 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2016-04-01 09:27 +0100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-01 21:38 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-01 13:50 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 07:41 -0700
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-04-01 10:04 +0100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marco Sulla <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-30 21:35 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-30 21:31 +0100
            Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2016-03-30 12:26 +0200
              Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 13:40 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2016-03-30 12:50 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 14:21 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-30 14:44 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2016-03-30 14:29 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-30 15:55 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2016-03-30 15:13 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 23:27 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-30 15:48 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 17:38 +0300
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-30 17:25 +0300
        Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-30 10:55 +0200
        Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-30 08:50 -0400
          Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 03:02 +1100
            Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-30 12:52 -0400
              Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-31 13:44 +1100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-03-31 10:04 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marco Sulla <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-31 13:58 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-31 13:30 +0100
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marco Sulla <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-31 14:49 +0200
                Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-31 14:14 +0100
            Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Marco Sulla <mail.python.org@marco.sulla.e4ward.com> - 2016-03-30 22:00 +0200
            Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-30 21:36 +0100
    Re: Suggestion: make sequence and map interfaces more similar Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-30 08:03 +0100

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