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Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough?

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On 12/31/2012 10:46 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:00:23  -0500, Mitya Sirenef wrote:
 >
 >> I think the general idea is that with editors like Vim you don't get
 >> distracted by having to do some kind of an editor task, letting you keep
 >> your full attention on the code logic. For instance, if I need to change
 >> a block inside parens, I type ci) (stands for change inside parens),
 >> while with a regular editor I'd have to do it manually and by the time
 >> I'm done, I'd forget the bigger picture of what I'm doing with the code.
 >
 > See, by the time I remembered what obscure (to me) command to type, or
 > searched the help files and the Internet, I'd have forgotten what the
 > hell it was I was trying to do. Well, almost. My memory is not quite that
 > bad, but it would certainly be a much bigger disruption to my coding than
 > just doing the edit by hand.


I would agree with you if I had to look up a command every time I use
it. The way it really works for me is that either I use a command often
enough that I remember it from the first time I looked it up, and the
memory is reinforced every time I use it, OR it's such a rare command
that looking it up is not a problem (obviously if it's faster to do it
by hand than to look it up, I can do that, as well, which in Vim means
using lower level commands that still don't require you leaving the home
row.)

>
 > I do love the power of command line tools, but I think that for rich
 > applications like editors, the interface is so clunky that I'd rather use
 > a less-powerful editor, and do more editing manually, than try to
 > memorize "hundreds" of commands.


Clunky is the last word I'd use to describe it (ok maybe for Emacs :-)
I probably remember about 200 commands, plus or minus, but a lot of them
fit into a consistent scheme which makes them much easier to remember:
there's (change delete yank vis-select)*(inner outer)*(letter word WORD 
paragraph )]} )

(Where word includes 'keyword' characters and WORD is separated by spaces).

So, these correspond to commands (cdyv)(ia)(lwWp)]}).

Therefore, deleting 3 WORDs is 3daW (mnemonic: del a WORD 3 times).

I think I have a pretty bad memory but I remembered all of these
commands a few at a time without too much trouble. And they're extremely
useful even now as I'm editing this email.


>
 > With a GUI app, I can run the mouse over the menus and see a high-level
 > overview of everything the app can do in a matter of a second or two.
 > (Perhaps three or five seconds if the app over-uses hierarchical menus.)
 > But with a text interface, commands are much less discoverable. I can
 > also use *spacial* memory to zero in on commands much more easily than
 > verbal memory -- I have no idea whether the command I want is called
 > "Spam" or "Ham" or "Tinned Bully Beef", but I know it's in the top
 > quarter of the "Lunch" menu, and I will recognise it when I see it.


It's not a binary choice, GVim has a customizable menu system with a
simple text format for adding menus (from Vim manual):

     To create a new menu item, use the ":menu" commands.  They are 
mostly like
     the ":map" set of commands but the first argument is a menu item 
name, given
     as a path of menus and submenus with a '.' between them. eg:

        :menu File.Save  :w<CR>
        :inoremenu File.Save  <C-O>:w<CR>
        :menu Edit.Big\ Changes.Delete\ All\ Spaces  :%s/[ ^I]//g<CR>

>
 > On the other hand, it's a lot harder to use a GUI app over a slow SSH
 > connection to a remote machine in a foreign country over a flaky link
 > than it is to use a command line or text-interface app.


With GVim, you can use gui menus just as easily when you open a file
remotely.

>
 >
 >> Another example: >ap stands for "indent a paragraph (separated by blank
 >> lines)". And there are many dozens if not hundreds such commands that
 >> let you stay focused on the logic of your code.
 >
 > Ah yes, the famous "a for indent" mnemonic. *wink*


Well, 'a' is mnemonic for 'a', fittingly ;-). > is for indent, just as <
is for dedent. 'a' is to distinguish from inner paragraph command,
which omits blank lines after the paragraph (which matter for other
commands, but not for indent/dedent.): >ip .


  - mitya


--
Lark's Tongue Guide to Python: http://lightbird.net/larks/

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New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? mogul <morten.guldager@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 12:01 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? ian douglas <ian.douglas@iandouglas.com> - 2012-12-27 12:13 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-12-27 20:23 +0000
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? peter <pjmakey2@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 17:14 -0300
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-12-27 15:57 -0500
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0000
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-12-27 15:25 -0600
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:28 -0700
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:29 -0700
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Modulok <modulok@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 16:30 -0700
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2012-12-28 10:37 +1100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 10:41 +1100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? "TommyVee" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> - 2012-12-27 20:09 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-27 20:37 -0500
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-12-28 04:15 +0000
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-28 06:51 +0000
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Yuvraj Sharma <aleastech@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 01:37 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-30 14:15 +0000
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:36 +0000
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Matty Sarro <msarro@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 13:47 -0500
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 03:52 -0600
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 21:05 +1100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Kwpolska <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 11:27 +0100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? gst <g.starck@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 04:08 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? python培训 <51mmj.com@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 06:15 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 18:02 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 17:40 +1100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 09:44 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 05:07 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 14:52 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 12:51 -0800
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 08:21 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 16:52 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:10 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 09:30 +1100
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:55 +0000
              Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 15:20 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:40 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 10:16 +1100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:43 +0000
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-12-29 18:50 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> - 2012-12-29 15:38 -0900
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 11:54 +1100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 14:00 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:46 +0000
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-01-01 21:12 +1100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-01 08:23 -0600
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 13:43 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-01-01 14:02 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 14:32 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:17 -0600
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 22:48 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 14:33 -0700
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 17:48 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 20:37 -0600
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Gisle Vanem <gvanem@broadpark.no> - 2013-01-03 10:59 +0100
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2012-12-31 06:57 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-12-31 13:35 +0100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-01-01 09:46 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2013-01-04 09:34 +0200
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-05 02:34 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-04 10:59 -0600
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 09:54 +1100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? xDog Walker <thudfoo@gmail.com> - 2012-12-31 16:13 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jussij@zeusedit.com - 2013-01-01 16:12 -0800
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:10 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:20 -0600
  Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jrodkeyjr@gmail.com - 2013-01-04 08:28 -0800

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