Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout

Path	csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!weretis.net!feeder1.news.weretis.net!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed6.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path	<rosuav@gmail.com>
X-Original-To	python-list@python.org
Delivered-To	python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status	OK 0.007
X-Spam-Evidence	'H': 0.99; 'S': 0.00; 'encoded': 0.05; 'bytes.': 0.07; 'happily': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; 'encoding.': 0.09; 'utf-8': 0.09; 'angelico': 0.16; 'encode': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'hexadecimal': 0.16; 'side.': 0.16; 'significance': 0.16; 'stdout': 0.16; 'meant': 0.18; 'discussion': 0.19; 'bytes': 0.19; '(which': 0.20; 'header:In- Reply-To:1': 0.21; 'support,': 0.21; "haven't": 0.22; 'subject:problem': 0.22; 'fine': 0.22; 'received:209.85.210.174': 0.23; 'received:mail-iy0-f174.google.com': 0.23; 'smart': 0.23; 'do,': 0.25; 'changed': 0.25; 'saying': 0.26; 'string': 0.26; "i'm": 0.27; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.28; '(not': 0.28; 'problem': 0.28; 'exists': 0.29; 'explicitly': 0.29; 'characters,': 0.30; 'decimal': 0.30; 'agree': 0.32; 'to:addr :python-list': 0.33; 'chris': 0.34; 'thinking': 0.34; 'characters': 0.34; 'skip:" 10': 0.35; 'agreed': 0.37; 'received:google.com': 0.37; 'change': 0.37; 'received:209.85': 0.37; 'communicate': 0.37; 'two': 0.37; 'but': 0.38; 'data': 0.38; 'subject:: ': 0.38; 'should': 0.39; 'received:209': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'really': 0.40; 'target': 0.60; 'your': 0.60; 'other.': 0.63; "we've": 0.63; 'demand': 0.66; 'boss': 0.73; 'thousand': 0.74; 'hundred': 0.76; 'agreement,': 0.84; 'encoding,': 0.84; 'render': 0.91
DKIM-Signature	v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EYRYYozqrUyClriS9AMfZNlliOuc6kuFWBpqFRJ7qEU=; b=B7OidlZkqD7sVj1MqIJE8p57+KShWcjCnei+JSEZTA/1cjAZKeglOlpYlt2vjuawYr 3SgSa8pDsrbn7qbDmZH/omKyg66ruuXOWfkFMzhYuwzcmMXS909iBrCWANawXuPA1nFJ Zrxnd4D4Xqdt3894TVgb/qMUtUtDstMSpzfC4=
DomainKey-Signature	a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VTq/pWP67+dYBJGbbmy+0jW67Suyvomfrefx6i2WQpRc0X+PeGbs9HbHHqtCpucTQM iBbXbkStSgHFc+liJl35hB961BJjBBLD3EAc2QuIe3taUi2PVpEJ+kAPfhLYd7HNuPbs CxLAWnGe4yg01534IOtQpwRK+M99bJ0FyTnGs=
MIME-Version	1.0
In-Reply-To	<4df2340d$0$30577$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>
References	<4df02e04$0$1779$a729d347@news.telepac.pt> <mailman.40.1307588443.11593.python-list@python.org> <4df137a7$0$30580$a729d347@news.telepac.pt> <pan.2011.06.09.21.46.15.672000@nowhere.com> <4df16f2e$0$30572$a729d347@news.telepac.pt> <8762oewjao.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <4df2340d$0$30577$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>
Date	Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:07:04 +1000
Subject	Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
To	python-list@python.org
Content-Type	text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding	quoted-printable
X-BeenThere	python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version	2.1.12
Precedence	list
List-Id	General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe	<http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive	<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list>
List-Post	<mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help	<mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe	<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.111.1307743627.11593.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
Lines	28
NNTP-Posting-Host	82.94.164.166
X-Trace	1307743627 news.xs4all.nl 49174 [::ffff:82.94.164.166]:56934
X-Complaints-To	abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref	x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:7412

Show key headers only | View raw

2011/6/11 Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt>:
> ok after thinking about this, this problem exist because Python want be
> smart with ttys

The *anomaly* (not problem) exists because Python has a way of being
told a target encoding. If two parties agree on an encoding, they can
send characters to each other. I had this discussion at work a while
ago; my boss was talking about being "binary-safe" (which really meant
"8-bit safe"), while I was saying that we should support, verify, and
demand properly-formed UTF-8. The main significance is that agreeing
on an encoding means we can change the encoding any time it's
convenient, without having to document that we've changed the data -
because we haven't. I can take the number "twelve thousand three
hundred and forty-five" and render that as a string of decimal digits
as "12345", or as hexadecimal digits as "3039", but I haven't changed
the number. If you know that I'm giving you a string of decimal
digits, and I give you "12345", you will get the same number at the
far side.

Python has agreed with stdout that it will send it characters encoded
in UTF-8. Having made that agreement, Python and stdout can happily
communicate in characters, not bytes. You don't need to explicitly
encode your characters into bytes - and in fact, this would be a very
bad thing to do, because you don't know _what_ encoding stdout is
using. If it's expecting UTF-16, you'll get a whole lot of rubbish if
you send it UTF-8 - but it'll look fine if you send it Unicode.

Chris Angelico

Thread

the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-09 03:18 +0100
  Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-06-09 12:39 +1000
    Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-09 22:16 +0100
      Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-06-10 09:19 +1000
  Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-06-08 20:00 -0700
    Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-09 22:14 +0100
      Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-06-09 22:46 +0100
        Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-06-09 20:14 -0400
        Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-10 02:11 +0100
          Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-06-10 11:45 +1000
            Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-10 02:59 +0100
            Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-10 16:11 +0100
              Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-06-10 10:58 -0600
                Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-13 15:15 +0100
                Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 00:49 +1000
              Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-11 08:07 +1000
      Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout "Mark Tolonen" <metolone+gmane@gmail.com> - 2011-06-09 17:57 -0700
        Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Sérgio Monteiro Basto <sergiomb@sapo.pt> - 2011-06-10 02:17 +0100
  Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-06-10 07:47 +0200
  Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-06-10 07:47 +0200
  Re: the stupid encoding problem to stdout Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-06-10 07:47 +0200

csiph-web