Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length :

From	Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au>
Subject	Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length :
Date	2014-05-16 16:54 +1000
References	(5 earlier) <ll2c3t$89v$1@news.albasani.net> <87a9ajb36d.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <78ac407a-c429-4a7a-93c9-5d83e0f09cbb@googlegroups.com> <8761l7b05y.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <5375af57$0$29977$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.10058.1400223286.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:

> Source code is, *by definition*, the definitive version. (It's the
> SOURCE, see?) Zipping the source code just means that the *source*
> inside the zip file is the definitive version, not the compressed
> binary data.

I find the Free Software Foundation has a good, clear definition of
“source” for programs:

    The "source code" for a work means the preferred form of the work
    for making modifications to it.

(GNU General Public License, version 3 §1).

There is ambiguity there, but it's exactly where it needs to be:
focussing the discussion on what form of the work is preferred for
making modofications to it.

A byte stream is only source *with respect to some work*, and is only
the source of *that* work if it is the preferred form of that work for
making modifications to that work.

This neatly cuts of at the knees a whole mob of futile speculative
distractions about “who is to say whether one person might consider this
byte stream to be source”.

To hell with all that. We're interested in making modifications to a
work, and we reach for some form of the work to do so: *that* form is
the source for the work.

> The AST is not definitive. Human beings write *text*, which is what
> the source code is.

And if it's not text in some outlying cases, then it will only be
because some *other* form of the work which is preferred by actual human
programmers for making modifications to the work.

> Code is written primarily for human beings. Many programmers, and many
> language designers, don't realise this, which is why so many programs
> are write-only code. Presentation *is important*, and cannot always be
> separated from semantics without hurting the primary audience, the
> human reader. This is what code obfuscators do, deliberately: mangle
> the presentation while keeping the semantics the same. You're
> inadvertently proposing the same thing (albeit to a lesser degree).

Yes. And this is why obfuscated code, though it may be interpreted
without difficulty by the same compiler algorithm, still does not
constitute the source for the program.

-- 
 \      “Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex… |
  `\    It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in |
_o__)                        the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein |
Ben Finney

Thread

PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ganesh Pal <ganesh1pal@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 12:37 +0530
  Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 04:52 -0700
    Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 13:46 +0000
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-14 08:55 +1000
        Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-05-14 12:24 +1200
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-14 17:09 -0400
    Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-14 22:53 +0000
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Gary Herron <gary.herron@islandtraining.com> - 2014-05-14 17:15 -0700
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-15 02:16 +0100
        Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-14 22:12 -0400
          Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-05-15 08:16 -0400
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 19:36 -0700
        Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-15 12:43 +1000
          Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-05-15 14:32 +0200
            Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-15 16:07 +0300
              Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 23:31 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-15 13:38 +0000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 23:44 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-15 19:29 +0000
              Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 06:53 -0700
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-15 09:58 -0400
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 00:14 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 07:15 -0700
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-15 17:29 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-05-15 09:38 -0500
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 00:42 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-15 17:50 -0400
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-16 01:05 +0100
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-15 17:18 +0100
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-15 17:12 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 00:24 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-15 17:36 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 01:03 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-16 06:25 +0000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-16 16:54 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-16 10:00 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 17:39 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-16 12:18 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 19:40 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-16 13:48 +0300
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-16 17:36 +1000
              Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-16 00:21 +0000
            Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 23:27 +1000
              Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 06:58 -0700
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-15 18:21 -0400
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 17:06 -0700
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-16 10:21 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 20:03 -0700
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-16 16:12 +1000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-16 07:05 +0000
                Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-16 02:25 +0000
            Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-16 09:32 +1000
        Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-15 03:28 +0000
          Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-15 20:18 -0400
        Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-15 04:44 +0100
  Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-13 08:09 -0400
    Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-13 22:26 +1000
      Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-13 20:51 -0400
    Re: PEP 8 : Maximum line Length : Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-05-13 07:52 -0500

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