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Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever?

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From Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever?
Date Tue, 1 Dec 2015 22:48:57 -0600
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On Dec 1, 2015 1:36 PM, "Rick Johnson" <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 1:55:59 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> > Python was never intended to be "merely" a teaching language. I think

> > Guido's original vision was for it to be a glue language between C

> > libraries, and a scripting language.

>

> It's a well know fact that GvR was inspired to create Python from his
experiences working with a language called ABC -- and ABC was designed
*EXCLUSIVELY* to be a beginners language.

Which is exactly what made ABC itself unsuitable for Guido's purpose, which
was to create an *applications* language with better productivity than C to
support users of Amoeba, the OS that he was working on at the time.

> I am not arguing that "abstractions are evil", no, my position is that
abstractions must be constructed in a manner that provides a clear trail of
bread crumbs which lead to the underlying processes. With print, not only
is the engine in another dimension, but the hood is as well! How is a noob
to discover the engine when he cannot find the hood?

>

> Ponder the following example code (as a noob!):

>

>  stdout.write("Dude, i found my car, the hood, and the effing engine!!!")

>

> Even a noob can intuit what is going on here. First we have an *OBJECT*
named "stdout, and we can extrapolate that stdout is an abbreviation for
StandardOutput. Next, we see a method called "write", and, if our IQ is
above room temperature, then we can extrapolate what that method will do.

This is absurd. You postulate a beginner so rank that they can't understand
what "print" means, yet you expect them to intuitively know:

1) what an object is;

2) what a method is;

3) that a method is identified by placing a period between the object and
the name of the method;

4) what "output" is in the context of programming;

5) and not be confused about what makes the output "standard".

> Now ponder this code (as a noob!):

>

>  print("Dude, where's the intuitiveness?")

>

> What the heck does print do? Where will the string go after i execute
this line of code? Should i turn my printer on? Should i check my ink
levels? And what OEM drivers are required?

You're describing this as if your hypothetical beginner were learning
Python in a vacuum. In reality, people learn from a teacher, or a book, or
at minimum a tutorial.

Here's how you teach somebody what "print" does: instruct them to type
print("hello world") at the interactive prompt. Note that Python writes
"hello world" as a result. If they really want, they can check their
printer and see that nothing came out. That's it. The student now
understands what "print" means.

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Thread

Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-01 12:00 +1100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Josef Pktd <josef.pktd@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 19:45 -0800
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 21:54 -0800
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-12-01 09:34 +0200
      Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 13:06 -0800
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-01 18:55 +1100
      Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 12:33 -0800
        Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-02 11:57 +1100
        Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 22:48 -0600
          Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 14:13 -0800
            Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-12 15:44 +1100
              Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 16:56 +1100
              Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 18:33 -0800
      Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-12-02 12:47 +1100
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2015-12-01 16:56 +0000
      Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 13:15 -0800
        Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? "Albert Visser" <albert.visser@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 19:08 +0100
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-12-02 13:14 +1300
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 01:22 -0600
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-01 18:57 +1100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-12-01 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-12-02 12:12 +1100
      Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-12-02 08:51 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-12-01 11:40 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-12-01 22:31 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-12-01 23:41 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? boB Stepp <robertvstepp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 20:20 -0600
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-12-01 23:46 -0800
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 10:22 +0200
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-12-02 10:09 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 20:28 +1100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 20:33 +1100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-12-02 10:40 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2015-12-02 11:48 +0100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 22:02 +1100
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 05:34 -0600
  Re: Is vars() the most useless Python built-in ever? Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 10:42 +0200

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