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Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improvethe Dvorak Layout?

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On Jun 19, 9:21 am, Lie Ryan <lie.1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/18/11 03:53, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 15, 5:43 am, rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 15, 5:32 pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Thanks. From testing small movements with my fingers I see that the
> >>> fourth finger is in fact a bit weaker than the last finger, but more
> >>> importantly, it is much less dexterous. Good to know!
>
> >> Most of the piano technique-icians emphasis, especially those of the
> >> last century like Hanon, was to cultivate 'independence' of the
> >> fingers.  The main target of these attacks being the 4th finger.
>
> >> The number of potential-pianists who ruined their hands and lives
> >> chasing this holy grail is unknown
>
> > Hi rusi, am afaid going to contradict what u say here.
>
> > i pretty much mastered Hanon 60. All of it, but it was now 8 years
> > ago. The idea that pinky is stronger than 4th is silly. I can't fathom
> > any logic or science to support that. Perhaps what u meant is that in
> > many situations the use of pinky can be worked around because it in at
> > the edge of your hand so you can apply chopping motion or similar.
> > (which, is BAD if you want to develope piano finger skill) However,
> > that's entirely different than saying pinky being stronger than 4th.
>
> > there's many ways we can cookup tests right away to see. e.g. try to
> > squeeze a rubber ball with 4th and thumb. Repeat with pink + thumb.
> > Or, reverse exercise by stretching a rubber band wrapped on the 2
> > fingers of interest. You can easy see that pinky isn't stronger.
>
> Except that the actual finger strength themselves are not very relevant;
> the dexterity of the fingers turned out to matter more because pressing
> the keys in a keyboard does not actually take a lot of power.

Actually there are 3 factors: strength, dexterity and independence.
Speaking somewhat simplistically,
strength corresponds to how hard one can hit a note,
dexterity to how fast one can play,
independence to.. well independence :-) eg fugal/multi-voice music
needs more independence -- both physical and intellectual -- than
harmony/chord based music

In Bach's introduction to his 2 and 3 part inventions he indicates his
intention:

An honest guide, wherewith lovers of the clavier, and especially those
anxious to learn, are shown a clear method not only how to learn to
play neatly in two parts, but further to play correctly and well in
three obbligato parts; and at the same time not only to acquire good
inventiones (ideas) but to work them out well; but above all to get a
cantabile style of playing and in addition to get a strong taste for
composition.

Likewise in Donald F Tovey's commentary on the fugue in Beethoven's
Hammerklavier he cautions:
"It is three voices, not two fists that unite..."

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Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-11 00:50 -0700
  Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-06-12 21:30 -0700
    Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Elena <egarrulo@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 00:21 -0700
      Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-06-13 13:19 +0000
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-06-13 15:54 +0200
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Elena <egarrulo@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 10:42 -0700
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-06-13 12:19 -0700
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 00:26 -0700
      Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 17:50 +0300
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 10:43 -0700
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 00:26 +0300
            Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 15:09 -0700
              Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 14:06 +0300
              Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 04:40 -0700
              Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 15:35 +0300
      Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 10:11 +1000
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 20:00 -0700
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 07:35 +0300
            Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 05:19 -0700
              Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:32 +0300
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 05:43 -0700
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 10:53 -0700
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improvethe Dvorak Layout? Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-06-19 14:21 +1000
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improvethe Dvorak Layout? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 22:14 -0700
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile toImprovethe Dvorak Layout? Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-06-19 15:50 +1000
                Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile toImprovethe Dvorak Layout? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-06-19 12:19 -0700
    Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Yang Ha Nguyen <cmpitg@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 01:42 -0700
      Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 19:22 +1000
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve   the Dvorak Layout? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-06-14 13:45 +1200
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 11:58 +1000
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve   the Dvorak Layout? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-14 03:34 +0000
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 23:11 -0700
            Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 16:11 -0600
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 17:29 -0500
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 10:18 +1000
          Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 20:23 -0500
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Elena <egarrulo@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 05:23 -0700
    Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-06-13 09:06 -0700
      Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-06-15 00:16 -0700
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 18:30 +1000
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 12:22 +0300
        Re: Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve the Dvorak Layout? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 19:33 +1000

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