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Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination

From Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination
Date 2015-07-19 09:29 +0300
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87y4ic7j8m.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <mo6iq5$vqk$1@ger.gmane.org> <55A76116.7070708@rece.vub.ac.be> <mailman.606.1437075284.3674.python-list@python.org> <87lhefanui.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <d102t1F8rq4U1@mid.individual.net>

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Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>:

> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> At any rate, it demonstrates how the idiom has its place in Python.
>
> Perhaps it does, but I think I'd still prefer it to be explicit.

Don't get me wrong. The method doesn't depend on tail call elimination.
It couldn't because its sibling method has the same recursion depth
without the possibility of tail call elimination.

I was just showing an example of an iteration expressed idiomatically
through a tail call.

> The call in Marko's example is not actually a tail call as written. To
> make it a tail call, a return would need to be added:
>
>>       return child.setvalue(keyseq, value, offset + 1)

Adding the return statement there would be bad because it would suggest
to the maintainer of the code that the method has a meaningful return
value, which it doesn't.

> To someone reading the code, it's not obvious why the return is there.
> It looks redundant, and is likely to get removed by someone who thinks
> it's a mistake.

Exactly. That's why I said also that it is unfortunate for Python to
promise to return None implicitly. That stipulation of the language
specification is against the de-facto semantics of procedures (your
sentence above) and effectively prevents automatic tail call
optimizations.

> Using a dedicated keyword would make it clear that tail call behaviour
> is being relied upon, and avoid looking like a spurious return.

A dedicated keyword would indeed work as advertised. However, I'm not
too keen on the idea. My position is: Python probably should have made
tail call elimination a matter of course, but since it doesn't, oh well.


Marko

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Thread

A new module for performing tail-call elimination "Th. Baruchel" <baruchel@no.spam.gmx.dot.com> - 2015-07-13 15:44 +0000
  Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-15 11:29 +0200
    Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-07-16 18:07 +1000
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2015-07-16 10:13 +0100
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2015-07-16 10:28 +0100
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-07-16 12:56 +0300
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-16 12:41 +0200
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-07-17 04:58 +1000
          Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-17 11:00 +0200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-16 21:11 +1000
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Jeremy Sanders <jeremy@jeremysanders.net> - 2015-07-16 13:29 +0200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-16 15:35 +0200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-16 23:47 +1000
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-17 20:06 -0700
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-16 16:21 +0200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 00:27 +1000
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-16 17:14 +0200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-07-16 10:17 -0600
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-07-16 10:54 -0700
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-07-16 11:02 -0700
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-07-16 15:45 -0400
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-07-16 12:58 -0700
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2015-07-17 09:57 +0100
    Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-07-16 13:23 +0200
  Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-07-15 17:19 -0400
  Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-16 09:45 +0200
  Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-07-16 15:34 -0400
    Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-07-16 22:45 +0300
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-07-17 15:47 -0400
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-07-17 23:55 +0300
          Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-07-17 20:40 -0400
            Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-07-19 10:39 +1200
          Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 10:47 +1000
          Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-07-19 10:39 +1200
      Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-07-19 10:39 +1200
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-07-19 01:09 +0100
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-07-19 01:19 +0100
        Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-07-19 09:29 +0300
  Re: A new module for performing tail-call elimination Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-07-17 10:06 +0200

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