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Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy?

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Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm not sure what else to say really. It's just a fact of life that
> Threads by definition run in the same memory space and hence always
> have the possibility of nasty unforeseen problems. They are unforeseen
> because it is extremely difficult (maybe impossible?) to try and map
> out and understand all the different possible mutations to state.

Sure, the shared memory introduces the possibility of some bad errors,
I'm just saying that I've found that by staying with a certain
straightforward style, it doesn't seem difficult in practice to avoid
those errors.

> Sure, your code might not be making any mutations (that you know of),
> but malloc definitely is [1], and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
> Other things like buffers for stdin and stdout, DNS resolution etc.
> all have the same issue. 

I don't understand what you mean about malloc.  I looked at that code
and there's a mutex to make multi-threaded programs work right, and an
ifdef (maybe for better performance) to use different code if there are
no threads.  IOW they spent a bunch of time handling threads.  Are you
saying there's a bug?  Re stdin/stdout: obviously you can't have
multiple threads messing with the same fd's; that's the same thing as
data sharing.  Re DNS: if gethostbyname isn't thread-safe I'd think of
that as a pretty bad bug.  But I'm having a vague memory of having had
an issue with this though, and IIRC it took part of a morning to figure
out what was going on, annoying but not a multi-month bug-hunt or
anything like that.  It didn't happen on my workstation, but only on the
embedded target that was probably running an old or weird libc.

> To borrow from the original article I linked - "Nevertheless I still
> think it’s a bad idea to make things harder for ourselves if we can
> avoid it."

That article was interesting in some ways but confused in others.  One
way it was interesting is it said various non-thread approaches (such as
coroutines) had about the same problems as threads.  Some ways it was
confused were:

  1) thinking Haskell threads were like processes with separate address
  spaces.  In fact they are in the same address space and programming
  with them isn't all that different from Python threads, though the
  synchronization primitives are a bit different.  There is also an STM
  library available that is ingenious though apparently somewhat slow.

  2) it has a weird story about the brass cockroach, that basically
  signified that they didn't have a robust enough testing system to be
  able to reproduce the bug.  That is what they should have worked on.

  3) It goes into various hazards of the balance transfer example not
  mentioning that STM (available in Haskell and Clojure) completely
  solves it.

  4) It says: "eventually a system which communicates exclusively through
  non-blocking queues effectively becomes a set of communicating event
  loops, and its problems revert to those of an event-driven system;
  it doesn’t look like regular programming with threads any more."

  That is essentially what an Erlang program is, and it misses the fact
  that those low-level event loops can use blocking operations to their
  heart's content, without the inversion of control (callback spaghetti)
  of traditional evented systems (I haven't used asyncio yet).  Also,
  the low-level loops can run in parallel on multiple cores, while a
  asyncio-style coroutine loop is sequential under the skin.

  In Erlang/OTP, you don't even see the event loops directly, since they
  are abstracted away by the OTP framework and it looks like RPC calls
  at the application level.  But, it helps to know what is going on
  underneath.

I'm realizing some people program Python in an ultra-dynamic style where
the mutability of modules, functions, etc. really comes into play, so
that make threads much more dangerous.  I've tended to write Python with
much less dynamism or even as if it were statically typed, so maybe that
helps.

Anyway, I got one thing out of this, which is that the multiprocessing
module looks pretty nice and I should try it even when I don't need
multicore parallelism, so thanks for that.

In reality though, Python is still my most productive language for
throwaway, non-concurrent scripting, but for more complicated concurrent
programs, alternatives like Haskell, Erlang, and Go all have significant
attractions.

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Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 12:45 +0000
  Re: Future of Pypy? jkn <jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 04:58 -0800
    Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 15:30 +0000
      [OT] - BASIC is still not a bad choice, was Re: Future of Pypy? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 17:24 -0700
  Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-22 14:27 +0100
    Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 15:36 +0000
      Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-22 18:22 +0100
        Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 11:02 -0800
          Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-22 20:51 +0100
            Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 12:14 -0800
              Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-22 23:13 +0100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 18:45 -0800
          Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-23 12:18 +1100
            Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 18:04 -0800
              Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 13:16 +1100
              Re: Future of Pypy? Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 03:16 +0000
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 19:45 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 04:00 +0000
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-22 22:13 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 07:32 +0000
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 16:11 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 11:31 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 17:50 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 13:03 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 20:40 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-24 17:57 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-27 13:40 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-02-27 18:47 -0500
                Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 00:35 +0000
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 21:27 -0800
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 16:57 +1100
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 22:23 -0800
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-24 10:08 +0200
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-24 15:53 -0800
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-25 07:25 +0200
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Marcos Almeida Azevedo <marcos.al.azevedo@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 13:34 +0800
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-25 07:46 +0200
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 16:54 +1100
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Marcos Almeida Azevedo <marcos.al.azevedo@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 13:58 +0800
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 23:02 -0700
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 17:07 +1100
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-25 16:37 +0000
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 10:00 -0700
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-25 17:16 +0000
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 04:22 +1100
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-02-25 19:44 -0500
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Ryan Stuart <ryan.stuart.85@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 00:59 +0000
                Re: Are threads bad? - was: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-26 21:55 -0800
              Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 14:25 +1100
              Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-23 18:41 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-23 10:16 +0200
                Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-23 20:19 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-24 17:56 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 18:16 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-23 23:57 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-02-23 11:39 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-24 13:15 +1100
                Re: Future of Pypy? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-23 17:47 -0800
                Re: Future of Pypy? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-24 10:12 +0200
      Re: Future of Pypy? Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-02-24 09:57 -0800
  Re: Future of Pypy? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-23 01:05 +1100
    Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 15:44 +0000
      Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-22 19:20 +0000
        Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-22 22:45 +0100
          Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-23 14:04 +0000
            Re: Future of Pypy? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-23 17:16 +0100
  Re: Future of Pypy? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-02-23 01:34 -0500
  Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Cook <davecook@nowhere.net> - 2015-02-23 11:36 +0000
    Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Farrance <DaveFarrance@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> - 2015-02-23 14:13 +0000
      Cython - was: Future of Pypy? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2015-02-23 16:43 +0100
      Re: Future of Pypy? Dave Cook <davecook@nowhere.net> - 2015-02-23 23:23 +0000

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