Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]


Groups > comp.lang.python > #109021

Re: for / while else doesn't make sense

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: for / while else doesn't make sense
Date 2016-05-23 20:29 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87iny4r2tc.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <5742bacb$0$1526$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <CALwzidm6ugmHHSt+qhQ1qazKTkwFeZC6qcQtJrBve0xLWrnLvg@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.20.1464012901.20402.python-list@python.org> <87zirgrgol.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <574336f5$0$1600$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Show all headers | View raw


Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> writes:

> On Tue, 24 May 2016 12:29 am, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 2:09 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>>> Are you saying that the Egyptians, Babylonians and Greeks didn't know
>>>> how to work with fractions?
>>>>
>>>> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EgyptianFraction.html
>>>>
>>>> http://nrich.maths.org/2515
>>>>
>>>> Okay, it's not quite 4000 years ago. Sometimes my historical sense of
>>>> the distant past is a tad inaccurate. Shall we say 2000 years instead?
>>>
>>> Those links give dates of 1650 BC and 1800 BC respectively, so I'd say
>>> your initial guess was closer.
>> 
>> Right, but this is to miss the point.  Let's say that 4000 years have
>> defined 1/3 to be one third, but Python 3 (as do many programming
>> languages) defines 1/3 to be something very very very very close to one
>> third, and *that* idea is very very very very new!  It's unfortunate
>> that the example in this thread does not illustrate the main problem of
>> shifting to binary floating point, because 1/2 happens to be exactly
>> representable.
>
> That's not really the point. I acknowledge that floats do not represent all
> rational numbers (a/b) exactly. Neither do decimal floats -- most school
> children will learn that 0.333333333333 is not 1/3 exactly, and anyone who
> has used a calculator will experience calculations that give (say)
> 0.999999999 or 1.0000000001 instead of 1.

Yes, I got that.  I'm sure you're aware of the consequences of a
floating point representation.

> And you know what? *People cope.*

Yes, I agree.

> For all the weirdness of floating point, for all the rounding errors and
> violations of mathematical properties, floating point maths is *still* the
> best way to perform numerical calculations for many purposes.

Indeed.

> In fact, even IEEE-754 arithmetic, which is correctly rounded and therefore
> introduces the least possible rounding error, is sometimes "too good" --
> people often turn to GPUs instead of CPUs for less accurate but faster bulk
> calculations.

Yes, they do.

> The point is, most people wouldn't really care that much whether 1/3
> returned a binary 0.3333333333, or decimal 0.3333333333, or an exact
> rational fraction 1/3. Most people wouldn't care too much if they got
> 32-bits of precision or 64, or 10 decimal places or 18. When cutting (say)
> a sheet of paper into three equal pieces, they are unlikely to be able to
> measure and cut with an accuracy better than 1/2 of a millimeter, so 15
> decimal places is overkill.

I agree here too.  Most people cope just fine with floating point.
Usenet magnifies the number of people reporting issues (due to testing
for equality or using them for currency and so on), but there is almost
certainly a silent majority who either just figure it out or understand
how to use floats from the get-go.

But there is an issue, however small, and it's due, largely, to the fact
that people can't see the representation of floats very well.  All sorts
of things conspire (for the very best of engineering reasons) to make it
hard to see what actual value you are holding.  Yes, people have been
doing arithmetic for thousands of years, but they've usually done it by
manipulating the representation themselves.  The "behind the scenes"
effects of floating point are a relatively new phenomenon though.

> But one thing is certain: very few people, Jon Ribbens being one of them,
> expects 1/3 to return 0. And that is why Python changed the meaning of
> the / operator: because using it for integer division was deeply unpopular
> and a bug magnet.

Yup.  I agree with everything you've said.

-- 
Ben.

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | NextPrevious in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread


Thread

for / while else doesn't make sense Herkermer Sherwood <theherk@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 09:31 -0700
  Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-05-19 10:22 -0700
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-20 04:02 +1000
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense theherk@gmail.com - 2016-05-19 11:47 -0700
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-19 23:28 +0300
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense David Jardine <david@jardine.de> - 2016-05-19 21:49 +0200
  Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-20 03:46 +1000
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-19 17:55 +0000
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-20 10:06 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense gst <g.starck@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 19:02 -0700
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> - 2016-05-19 23:53 -0700
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-20 11:55 +0000
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-05-20 19:57 -0400
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 21:26 +1000
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-05-20 16:58 -0700
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-21 00:24 +0000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 13:50 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 14:01 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 19:56 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 20:08 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 20:55 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 21:10 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-21 08:20 +0100
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-21 11:37 +0300
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 20:39 +1000
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-21 21:48 +0100
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-22 12:57 +1000
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 02:55 +0000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 17:29 +1000
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-05-20 07:45 +0100
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 06:01 +1000
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 14:11 -0600
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 06:27 +1000
  Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-20 11:51 +1200
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-20 09:09 +0100
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pylist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 10:59 -0500
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-20 12:20 -0700
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 08:43 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense theherk@gmail.com - 2016-05-20 16:24 -0700
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-21 09:03 +0300
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 21:26 +1000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 07:51 -0600
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 15:20 +0000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-05-21 10:21 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-21 00:35 +0000
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 12:05 +1000
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 14:15 +0000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-22 17:58 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 15:09 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 08:26 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-22 13:25 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 10:34 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 18:06 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-22 14:17 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-23 17:09 +1000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-23 01:19 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 01:32 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-22 18:50 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 15:52 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 02:35 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 16:46 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 10:22 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-22 13:30 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-22 17:55 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-22 14:14 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-22 20:51 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 00:34 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 17:04 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-23 08:09 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 00:36 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:01 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 01:00 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense breamoreboy@gmail.com - 2016-05-22 18:47 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 15:35 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-05-23 02:51 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-05-23 14:13 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 23:09 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-23 09:30 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 23:46 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-23 18:09 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 08:14 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-23 15:29 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 08:49 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 19:16 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 13:24 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 22:50 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-24 18:49 +1200
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 19:03 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-25 18:35 +1200
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 10:38 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 00:57 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 01:47 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 01:57 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-23 17:51 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 02:59 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-23 20:55 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Mark Dickinson <mdickinson@enthought.com> - 2016-05-23 20:17 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-23 22:01 +0100
                Numerical methods [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 10:57 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 08:30 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 10:02 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 20:22 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 09:53 -0600
                When were real numbers born? (was for / while else doesn't make sense) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 22:02 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-23 15:36 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 11:05 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-05-23 19:19 -0700
                META Culture of this place [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-25 02:43 +1000
                Re: META Culture of this place [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] boB Stepp <robertvstepp@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 12:19 -0500
                Re: META Culture of this place [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-05-24 10:44 -0700
                Re: META Culture of this place [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-24 12:54 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 14:23 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-24 10:40 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-25 18:38 +1200
                Extended ASCII [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-25 17:30 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-25 02:10 -0700
                Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-25 20:19 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 20:30 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-25 22:03 +0100
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-05-26 10:21 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 00:44 -0700
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-26 12:11 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:20 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-26 21:54 +0100
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-05-27 08:03 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-05-25 21:28 -0400
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-26 09:11 +0100
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-26 12:20 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-05-26 21:29 +0100
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-27 00:12 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-27 13:35 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-27 09:10 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-27 16:47 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-27 10:04 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-27 19:56 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-27 09:51 -0400
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 08:53 -0700
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-27 12:09 -0400
                Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 21:46 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-05-28 08:16 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-05-28 08:50 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-28 14:05 -0400
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-29 15:37 +1000
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 23:12 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-05-29 14:46 -0400
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-05-29 22:29 +0200
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-05-30 06:35 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 20:54 -0700
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-05-29 06:19 +0000
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-29 20:54 +1200
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-29 12:56 +0300
                Re: Coding systems are political (was Exended ASCII and code pages) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-05-30 09:11 -0700
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 02:16 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-28 18:54 +1000
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-27 22:03 +0300
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 21:23 -0700
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 03:39 -0700
                Re: Exended ASCII and code pages [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-05-26 07:07 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-25 13:47 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-25 05:19 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 22:49 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-05-26 09:54 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 00:44 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-05-26 00:52 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-26 12:05 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-29 14:41 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-29 22:01 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-05-23 20:07 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 10:11 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 02:59 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 17:09 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 03:33 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 17:57 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 04:14 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-23 13:44 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:52 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Alan Evangelista <alanoe@linux.vnet.ibm.com> - 2016-05-23 15:06 -0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-24 12:15 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-24 10:54 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-25 03:44 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 03:49 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-05-24 19:57 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-05-24 20:10 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-05-23 20:29 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-23 18:33 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 02:17 +0000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-20 18:23 -0700
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 12:31 +1000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-20 20:47 -0700
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 22:18 -0700
        Education [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-21 20:05 +1000
          Re: Education [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-21 08:51 -0700
            Re: Education [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-21 20:08 +0300
              Re: Education [was Re: for / while else doesn't make sense] Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-05-23 16:44 +0000
  Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 16:39 -0700
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-02 13:44 +1000
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-06-02 20:09 +0000
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 14:46 -0600
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-02 21:52 +0100
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 18:05 -0700
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-03 10:23 +0100
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:47 -0700
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-03 10:32 +0100
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:22 -0700
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 12:20 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 20:41 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 19:27 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 20:20 -0700
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-04 13:55 +0100
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 18:08 -0700
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-06-03 15:52 +0000
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:24 -0700
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 13:00 +1000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 20:43 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-06-04 04:37 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 20:29 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-05 16:35 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-06-05 04:29 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 14:43 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 17:51 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-06-07 03:34 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 00:53 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-06-07 12:27 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 14:57 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 22:35 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 00:52 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-07 11:00 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 15:07 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-06-07 17:31 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 18:25 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 18:29 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2016-06-07 18:40 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense breamoreboy@gmail.com - 2016-06-07 20:45 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-08 08:24 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 18:36 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 05:52 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 14:58 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-08 01:06 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 15:08 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-08 08:27 +0300
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 17:34 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-09 18:19 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 17:11 -0600
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 17:53 -0700
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-06-07 21:13 -0700
  Re: for / while else doesn't make sense pavlovevidence@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 00:01 -0700
    AttributeError into a bloc try-except AttributeError Vincent Vande Vyvre <vincent.vande.vyvre@telenet.be> - 2016-06-12 09:20 +0200
    Re: AttributeError into a bloc try-except AttributeError Vincent Vande Vyvre <vincent.vande.vyvre@telenet.be> - 2016-06-12 10:30 +0200
    Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-12 20:06 +1000
      Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 18:44 +0000
        Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-13 12:12 +1000
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 20:46 -0700
          Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 23:45 +0000
            Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-14 12:43 +1000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 04:37 +0000
              Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 08:33 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 16:27 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 18:29 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-15 13:12 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:38 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 04:19 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-15 13:27 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 05:44 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:51 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 07:20 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-15 11:54 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:03 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-15 18:27 +0100
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-16 11:40 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-15 13:41 -0400
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 07:31 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 19:59 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 19:54 -0700
                What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 22:48 -0700
                Re: What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 22:57 -0700
                Re: What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-16 04:12 -0700
                Re: What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-16 18:53 -0700
                Re: What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 09:32 -0700
                Re: What is structured programming (was for/while else doesn't make sense) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:07 -0700
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:56 +1000
                Re: for / while else doesn't make sense Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-16 11:19 +1000

csiph-web