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Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting
Date 2015-06-27 10:45 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <876169vydh.fsf@nightsong.com> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <mailman.89.1435280528.3674.python-list@python.org> <558d86b0$0$1659$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.111.1435349412.3674.python-list@python.org> <mmkf5b$uvj$1@news.albasani.net> <mailman.140.1435424557.3674.python-list@python.org>

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Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> writes:
> Furthermore you cannot prove a negative, which is what proving
> security is for anything but the trivial case. Are you saying this is
> untrue?

I've always thought that there are no two even numbers that when you add
them together, give you an odd number.  Are you saying that statement
can't be proven?

> But how does one prove a system is secure except by enumerating attack
> vectors

In the case of encryption, you do a reduction proof to a recognized
primitive like AES.  That is, you show that if your system is breakable,
you can transform the break into a break against AES itself.  That's the
best you can do at the moment, because the open status of the P!=NP
problem means that no one knows how to prove that any primitive (such as
AES) is secure.  The reduction proof means that the evidence for AES's
security also applies to your system.

Of course that's just for the cipher itself.  For the entire surrounding
software/hardware/process system which is mostly not mathematical,
you're right, there's no way to (mathematically) prove security or even
to define it.

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Thread

Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-24 13:36 -0500
  Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-25 14:07 +1000
    Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-24 21:27 -0700
      Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-25 19:25 +1000
        Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-25 02:41 -0700
        Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-25 19:57 +1000
        Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-25 10:03 +0000
          Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-26 01:13 +1000
            Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-25 15:26 +0000
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-25 13:58 -0500
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 10:33 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-26 10:49 +0000
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-25 19:01 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-27 03:06 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-26 15:09 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-26 23:07 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-26 21:29 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-26 22:55 +0100
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 00:42 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 16:26 -0700
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-27 00:21 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-26 19:55 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 07:24 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-26 19:12 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 15:58 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-26 19:23 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-26 23:11 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 11:02 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-27 10:45 -0700
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-27 13:38 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 21:05 -0700
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-27 16:16 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 13:30 -0700
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-28 11:18 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 19:11 -0700
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 23:47 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-27 18:38 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 18:53 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 11:07 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 19:17 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-27 09:27 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 12:05 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 20:16 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 12:55 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-27 10:26 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-27 14:27 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 12:18 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 21:33 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 08:59 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-27 13:25 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2015-06-27 15:23 +0300
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-27 14:48 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-06-27 11:12 +0200
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 09:09 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-28 03:35 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-28 03:58 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 14:16 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-28 13:41 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 08:58 +0100
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 09:07 +0100
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-27 10:39 -0400
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-27 12:38 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-27 13:22 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-28 04:51 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-28 09:05 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 11:21 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 23:59 -0600
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-27 09:26 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-27 16:52 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-27 12:08 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-28 04:50 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-29 15:52 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-30 13:00 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-30 12:19 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-07-01 04:17 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 04:33 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-30 18:37 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-07-01 09:38 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-30 12:39 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-07-01 04:59 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 05:20 +1000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-30 23:25 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-07-01 08:06 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-28 14:21 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-29 15:46 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-29 20:49 +0000
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-30 12:43 -0500
                Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-07-02 10:31 +1200
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-26 02:17 +0100
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 12:06 +1000
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 12:05 +1000
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-26 03:24 +0100
              Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-26 12:29 +1000
        Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Joonas Liik <liik.joonas@gmail.com> - 2015-06-25 13:00 +0300
        Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-06-25 03:18 -0700
    Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-25 17:05 +1000
    Re: Pure Python Data Mangling or Encrypting Randall Smith <randall@tnr.cc> - 2015-06-25 14:09 -0500

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