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Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload())

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On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 8:11:20 AM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 3/2/2016 10:22 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 12:23:02 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> >> On 2/29/2016 7:42 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is import needed at all when trying out in Idle?
> >> ...
> >>> So it does appear that
> >>> 1. import not necessary with(in) idle
> >>> 2. However import and f5 (ie is run as main) are different
> >>>
> >>> May some idle experts elaborate on this? Whats the idle idiom of import-ing?
> >>
> >> Rustom, since I know that you are not a rank beginner, I have trouble
> >> understanding what you are asking.
> >
> > Heh!
> > I know some things; dont know many things
> >
> >> F5 when editing foo.py is equivalent
> >> to running "python -i foo.py" on a command line while 'in' the directory
> >> containing foo.py.  In both cases, foo.py is run as a main module, with
> >> __name__ == '__main__'.  The difference is that F5 runs foo.py under
> >> IDLE supervision, with results going into and interactive inputs coming
> >> from IDLE shell instead of the console interpreter.
> >>
> >> Imports are used in a module to access objects within the imported module.
> >
> > Let me try to explain again
> >
> > There is import and import.
> > There is the formal meaning of the import keyword in python -- call it import-f
> > There is the informal expectation and need of programmers to 'pull something
> > into python' -- call it import-i
> 
> What do you mean by import-i that is different module import?  Keyboard 
> input with input()? File input with file.read(), etcetera? Running a 
> file with 'python filename' or 'python -m filename'?

I define something... either with
def foo()...
or
x = ...

I want to see what foo does/what x is
I want to check that my understanding of these matches python's representation
of the same.
I could keep typing the the
def foo()...
but that can get painful quickly

So I put these in a file...
And import!

At this point I am pleased
Because what I expect of import (import-i)
and what python does with the import keyword (import-f) match... seemingly

Until I go and change the def in the file and run the import again
Fails
Restart python -- works

> 
> > That there is some cognitive dissonance between import-f and import-i is seen
> > in the OP's question itself;
> 
> The OP's question is faulty.  Repeat imports *are* allowed.
> 
> > also Chris' "I dont believe the language should be changed"
> >
> > So the question is around:
> > What is the best practice for doing import-i in python?
> 
> Since I don't know what you mean by import-i, I cannot answer.
> 
> > As the OP finds import-f works once and fails thereafter
> 
> This is false.  Import is a name binding statement.  If a module is not 
> builtin, the first attempt to bind a name to a particular module has to 
> create the module and cache it in sys.modules.  If it is builtin, the 
> first attempt caches the module.  Subsequent attempts reuse the cached 
> module.  Here are three imports that involve the same module.  All three 
> run, none fail.
> 
>  >>> import itertools as it
>  >>> import itertools as it2
>  >>> from itertools import count
>  >>> it, it2, count
> (<module 'itertools' (built-in)>, <module 'itertools' (built-in)>, 
> <class 'itertools.count'>)
> 
> If you want to create and cache a new module of the same name, perhaps 
> after editing a file, delete the cache entry before importing again. 
> Reload does this for you. What it does not attempt to do is to change or 
> delete all the old bindings and references.
> 
> If one does plan to reload a module, then one should only access the 
> module *and its contents* via one name and keep track of any other 
> references to its contents, such as from instances to classes in the 
> module.  This may be easy for a simple module of functions, but in the 
> general case, can be be difficult to impossible.
> 
> > In idle one can get the desired result of import-i with F5
> > Is that right?
> 
> Having no idea what import-i is, I cannot answer.  I explained F5 in my 
> previous answer.
> 
> > Also in general is there good usecases for import-f at that interpreter prompt
> 
> As I said before, the purpose of an import is to access the contents of 
> module 2 from within module 1, where module1 can be the main module, 
> including in interactive mode.  A beginner experimenting with core 
> python might proceed for hours without an import.  Anyone experimenting 
> with a module must import the module first.  I usually import one or 
> more modules in a given interactive session.
> 
>  > in idle?
> 
> Whether the prompt is in a console text window or IDLE gui window is 
> irrelevant.  The IDLE Shell gui window imitates interactive python in a 
> text console.  It submits each statement entered to Python for execution 
> and displays the stdout and stderr results.
> 
> > I think not but not sure of it
> 
> Here is an example use of import for learning tkinter.
> 
>  >>> import tkinter as tk
> 
> As expected, nothing visible happens.
> 
>  >>> root = tk.Tk()
> 
> A default master windows is created *and displayed*.
> 
>  >>> b = tk.Button(root, text = 'hello world')
> 
> Nothing visible happens.
>  >>> b
> <tkinter.Button object .2092827275560>
> 
> But an instance of the class was created.
> 
>  >>> b.grid()
> 
> Button appears. Master window shrinks to fit.
> 
>  >>> t = tk.Toplevel(root)
> 
> A new toplevel window appears.

Thanks
Thats a good example

As far as I can see, its an example of importing a standard/system module.
Any example of usefully running import-f (ie the keyword) with modules under
development?

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Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-02-28 22:40 -0800
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:01 +1100
    Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-01 22:18 +1100
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 22:39 +1100
        Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 04:11 +1100
          Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 05:04 +1100
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 14:53 -0700
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 09:02 +1100
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 15:29 -0700
        Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 12:19 +1100
          Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 19:22 -0700
            Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 02:15 -0800
              Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 02:19 -0800
            Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-03-02 15:15 +0000
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 11:13 +1100
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 00:02 -0700
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:11 +1100
    Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-29 15:33 +0000
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 03:05 +1100
  Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 04:42 -0800
    Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-03-01 01:52 -0500
      Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 07:22 -0800
        Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-03-02 21:40 -0500
          Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 20:07 -0800
            Re: Correct IDLE usage (was Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload()) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 20:17 -0800
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 05:00 -0800
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 05:22 -0800
    Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 05:25 -0800
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 04:00 +1100
        Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-03-05 04:51 -0800
          Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-10 00:53 +1100
    Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 05:51 -0800
      Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-02-29 07:13 -0800
    Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-03-01 02:04 -0500
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-03-06 00:20 -0800
    Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-07 01:50 +1100
  Re: Reason for not allowing import twice but allowing reload() alien2utoo@gmail.com - 2016-03-06 00:31 -0800

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