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Groups > comp.lang.python > #48796

Re: Default Value

Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Date 2013-06-20 07:49 -0700
References <7e6361d5-6619-4aaa-adda-8b5f01bde57f@googlegroups.com> <b3d90d37-896c-4c80-8f94-9e046453927c@googlegroups.com> <447dd1c6-1bb2-4276-a109-78d7a067b442@d8g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID <2e92b4c7-31be-40d2-a906-ab19f3630dfa@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject Re: Default Value
From Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>

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On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:57:06 AM UTC-5, rusi wrote:
> Every language has gotchas. This is one of python's.

So are we purposely injecting illogic into our language just
to be part of some "cool crowd" of programming languages with
gotchas.

 "You thought intuitiveness was a virtue? Haha, we gotcha!"

Or maybe this is reminiscent of the fraternity hazing rituals
of days gone by:

 *POP*
 "Thank you Sir, may i have another?"

> If you are a beginning python programmer, really the best
> answer is: Just dont do it!  Dont do what? Dont use
> mutable arguments as function defaults. Once you cross the
> noob stage you can check that its a standard gotcha: Just
> run a search for 'python gotcha default []'
>
> And when you feel that you need to, use Steven's trick:
> use a immutable indicator 'None' for the mutable []. Once
> you cross the noob stage you can check that its a standard
> gotcha: Just run a search for 'python gotcha default []'
> Its even been discussed repeatedly on the python-ideas
> list

Your attempting to excuse an inexcusable language flaw by
pointing out that the effects of the flaw can be avoided by
using a workaround. And, to add insult to injury, you
provide no good reason for the flaw to exist:

 "Just do x, y, and z and shut up. Yes we made a mistake
 but we are not about to admit our mistake and the onerous
 will be on all the noobs to re-invent the workaround each
 time"

To me that is unacceptable.

> Heres a correction suggestion: [...] Here's Terry Reedy's
> nicely explaining the 'why-of-the-how' : [...] FWIW here
> is a conceptual/philosophical explanation of your
> confusion: There are 2 fundamental ways for approaching
> the programming task -- functional and imperative.

All these "explanations" ignore a fundamental fact about
subroutines[1].

A call to a subroutine should exists as a unique transaction
within the entire program. It is expected to optionally take
inputs, and optionally return an output (depending on the
definition).

When the subroutine is completed, all inputs and local
variables are expected to be destroyed. If the programmer
wants a return value, he need simply ask. Data persistence
is not a function of subroutines! Finally, a subroutine
should never have side effects UNLESS the programmer
explicitly ask for a side effect.

However, the Python flaw of allowing mutable sequence
arguments to persist between successive calls of a
subroutine is breaking the entire definition of a
subroutine, and for what noble purpose i ask? What purpose
is SO important that you change a well established interface
in a totally unintuitive manner?

If your answer is that recursion is easier, then i say that
is foolish because a programmer can keep a reference
to a mutable sequence OUTSIDE the subroutine and you can
save the "gotchas" for Guido's next birthday party.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subroutine

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Thread

Default Value Ahmed Abdulshafy <abdulshafy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 12:17 -0700
  Re: Default Value Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-06-19 22:35 +0300
  Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 12:38 -0700
    Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 05:57 -0700
      Re: Default Value Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-20 09:19 -0400
        Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 06:31 -0700
        Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 00:17 +0000
          Re: Default Value Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-20 20:25 -0400
      Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 07:49 -0700
        Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 01:38 +1000
          Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 11:05 -0700
            Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 00:57 +0000
              Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 20:16 -0700
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 17:10 +1000
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 16:22 +0000
            Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 15:57 +0000
              Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 10:01 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-21 18:47 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 11:26 -0700
                Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 18:37 +0000
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 12:18 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 12:35 -0700
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 05:07 +1000
                Re: Default Value Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-06-21 19:20 +0000
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 13:27 -0700
                Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-22 01:31 +0000
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 11:40 +1000
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 18:42 -0700
                Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-22 03:04 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:32 -0700
                Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-22 20:36 +0100
                Re: Default Value Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-22 18:51 -0400
                Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:43 -0700
                Re: Default Value Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-22 09:26 +0100
                Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-21 20:25 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 13:44 -0700
                Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-21 23:49 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 16:51 -0700
                Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-22 02:54 +0100
                Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-22 01:15 +0000
                Re: Default Value Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:27 -0600
                Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:32 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:55 -0700
                Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 23:23 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 08:07 -0700
                Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 08:31 -0700
                Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 09:11 -0700
                Re: Default Value Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-24 14:22 +0000
                Re: [SPAM] Re: Default Value MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-06-24 16:22 +0100
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 11:41 +1000
                Re: Default Value Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 20:46 -0600
                Re: Default Value Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-22 16:40 +0200
                Re: Default Value Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-22 12:49 -0400
                Re: Default Value Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 12:57 -0600
                Re: Default Value Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-22 18:48 -0400
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-22 00:40 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 18:15 -0700
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 11:37 +1000
                Re: Default Value Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:42 -0600
                Re: Default Value Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:38 -0600
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:40 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-22 03:01 +0100
                Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 12:18 +1000
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-22 03:25 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-22 18:19 +0100
                Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 11:49 -0700
                Re: Default Value Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-23 01:49 +0100
        Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 10:12 -0700
          Re: Default Value Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 03:19 +1000
            Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 10:30 -0700
          Re: Default Value Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 11:57 -0600
            Re: Default Value rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 11:15 -0700
            Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 01:08 +0000
              Re: Default Value Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-06-20 20:26 -0500
                Re: Default Value Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-20 21:40 -0400
                Re: Default Value Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-06-20 21:02 -0500
          Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 11:07 -0700
            Re: Default Value alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 10:55 +1000
          Re: Default Value 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 19:18 -0700
          Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 02:26 +0000
          Re: Default Value "Lefavor, Matthew (GSFC-582.0)[MICROTEL LLC]" <matthew.lefavor@nasa.gov> - 2013-06-20 17:28 -0500
            Re: Default Value Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 08:17 -0700
        Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-21 01:28 +0000
  Re: Default Value Gary Herron <gherron@digipen.edu> - 2013-06-19 12:57 -0700
  Re: Default Value Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-20 01:17 +0000

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