Re: anomaly

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2015-05-11 07:56 -0700
References	(5 earlier) <miq0vh$tdg$1@ger.gmane.org> <mailman.352.1431344390.12865.python-list@python.org> <87fv73iavz.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.362.1431350872.12865.python-list@python.org> <87617zi53k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID	<052875ff-7879-4b2f-a00f-08e980e8c217@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: anomaly
From	zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com>

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On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 9:03:43 AM UTC-5, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be>:
> 
> > The point is that all too often someone wants to defend a specific
> > choice the developers have made and cites some general rule or
> > principle in support, ignoring the fact that python breaks that
> > rule/principle in other area's.
> 
> Granted, but you have set the trap for them by demanding a justification
> when no justification was required. Every language has their cute
> idiosyncrasies and arbitrary design choices.

No.  Here's where I must disagree.  I think one can infer a goal for particular programming languages, even if it is subconscious.  For example, with LISP it could be "generality".  For C, it could be "staying as close to the machine as possible while maximizing the use to humans" -- contradiction that works because they've limited their architecture to VonNeumann (stackless) machines.

I think the subconscious goal of OOP languages is to create a data ecosystem, starting with a unified data model under the realization that ultimately:  all data relates to other data -- that my database of wind speed and direction from 2012 is relatable, by some finite number of hops, to your data on population growth in Chicago.  Call it the "seven degrees of data" and remember the exabytes of data out there.

Python is creating the perfect system for that because it has an interpreter environment with which to manipulate objects that could be retrieved on the net and sent back out.  It has docstrings so that your foreign object can self-document, and doctests, so that I can be confident that your code works as *I* expect.

There are reasons to have limits on programming freedom.  It puts order to chaos.  It guides the wily programmers into a particular train of thought.  You don't override "True" because you'd be breaking one of the [explicit] goals of the language:  readability.  If there were no constraints, life itself could not exist.

I don't think shadowing built-in types was a design choice but simply never got exercised because most people are used to handling such things, *subconsciously*, like C.

To Mr. Gatti, my point was not an insult, it is a theoretical postulate in the domain of Computer Science.  One that has not really been studied.  OOP is still far from it's goal, so the field is still answering questions within it.

Mark

Thread

Re: anomaly Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 10:42 -0600
  Re: anomaly Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 09:48 -0700
    Re: anomaly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-10 18:21 +0100
    Re: anomaly Gary Herron <gherron@digipen.edu> - 2015-05-10 10:28 -0700
      Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-11 13:19 +1000
    Re: anomaly boB Stepp <robertvstepp@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 14:12 -0500
      Re: anomaly Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-05-11 13:37 +0000
        Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 02:35 +1000
          Re: anomaly Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-05-11 20:48 +0000
            Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 12:18 +1000
    Re: anomaly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-11 08:40 +0100
    Re: anomaly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 17:44 +1000
    Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-11 12:15 +0200
      Re: anomaly John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-05-12 17:47 -0700
        Re: anomaly Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 17:56 -0700
          Re: anomaly Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 19:16 -0700
            Re: anomaly Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:31 -0700
    Re: anomaly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-11 11:40 +0100
    Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-11 13:39 +0200
      Re: anomaly Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-11 14:58 +0300
        Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-11 15:27 +0200
          Re: anomaly Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-11 17:03 +0300
            Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 07:56 -0700
              Re: anomaly Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-11 20:32 -0400
            Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-12 13:34 +0200
          Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 01:44 +1000
            Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:17 -0700
            Re: anomaly Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-11 20:33 -0400
            Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-12 14:31 +0200
      Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-11 22:34 +1000
        Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-11 15:38 +0200
        Re: anomaly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 00:13 +1000
        Re: anomaly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-12 17:37 +1200
        Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-12 13:55 +0200
          Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-12 23:56 +1000
            Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:34 -0700
              Re: anomaly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 01:43 +1000
                Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 20:39 -0700
              Re: anomaly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-12 17:19 +0100
                Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 08:19 -0700
              Re: anomaly Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 11:22 -0500
                Re: anomaly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-13 13:58 +1000
              Re: anomaly Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 12:07 -0600
            Re: anomaly Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-12 16:23 -0400
            Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-13 09:07 +0200
          Re: anomaly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-13 12:19 +1200
            Re: anomaly Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-05-13 09:23 +0200
        Re: anomaly Gary Herron <gherron@digipen.edu> - 2015-05-12 09:07 -0700
    Re: anomaly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-11 12:47 +0100
    Re: anomaly boB Stepp <robertvstepp@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 07:43 -0500
    Re: anomaly boB Stepp <robertvstepp@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 07:26 -0500
  Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 17:48 -0700
    Re: anomaly Gary Herron <gherron@digipen.edu> - 2015-05-10 18:07 -0700
      Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 18:18 -0700
        Re: anomaly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 11:53 +1000
          Re: anomaly zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:09 -0700
          Re: anomaly Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 19:12 -0700
            Re: anomaly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 12:20 +1000
        Re: anomaly BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-11 12:55 +0100

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