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When do elements get their style attribute values?

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  When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-12 17:14 +0100
    Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Martin Honnen <mahotrash@yahoo.de> - 2011-07-12 18:20 +0200
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-12 17:44 +0100
    Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> - 2011-07-13 15:27 +0200
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2011-07-13 13:37 +0000
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-13 14:49 +0100
        Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> - 2011-07-14 20:24 +0200
          Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-14 22:08 +0100
    Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? RobG <rgqld@iinet.net.au> - 2011-07-14 16:08 -0700
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-15 12:50 +1000
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? SteveYoungTbird <stephen.young@chello.at> - 2011-07-15 16:43 +0200
      Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-15 18:21 +0100
        Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-15 20:11 +0200
          Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-15 21:50 +0100
            Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-16 11:11 +0200
              Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-16 12:38 +0100
                Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 02:43 +0200
                  Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 02:45 +0200
            Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 19:12 -0700
              Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-17 09:11 +0100
                Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:10 -0700
                  Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-07-17 20:18 +0100
                    Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:30 -0700
            Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 19:18 -0700
          Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? SteveYoungTbird <stephen.young@chello.at> - 2011-07-16 10:47 +0200
            Re: When do elements get their style attribute values? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-16 11:01 +0200

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#4117 — When do elements get their style attribute values?

There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd 
like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to 
calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to 
either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.

So, I'm doing something like [1]:

h = 
document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");

where e is a pointer to my element.

But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function, 
I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after 
waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.

So when are these style values set? The reason for this is to avoid what 
I do at the moment: compute the true height by hand and just have a 
JavaScript variable initialised to that value.


[1] If/when I can sort this I can collect the border/margin/padding 
values too.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4118

Tim Streater wrote:
> There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd
> like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to
> calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to
> either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
>
> So, I'm doing something like [1]:
>
> h =
> document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
>
> where e is a pointer to my element.
>
> But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function,
> I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after
> waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.

Do you get the same behaviour with any browser you try that supports 
getComputedStyle?
If the element is part of the static markup of the document then I would 
stuff like dimensions to be known "onload".
Do you have URL where the issue occurs? Which browser(s) does that 
happen with?



-- 

	Martin Honnen --- MVP Data Platform Development
	http://msmvps.com/blogs/martin_honnen/

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#4120

In article <4e1c743c$0$6630$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net>,
 Martin Honnen <mahotrash@yahoo.de> wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
> > There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd
> > like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to
> > calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to
> > either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
> >
> > So, I'm doing something like [1]:
> >
> > h =
> > document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
> >
> > where e is a pointer to my element.
> >
> > But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function,
> > I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after
> > waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
> 
> Do you get the same behaviour with any browser you try that supports 
> getComputedStyle?

I'm using Safari under OS X. As things stand there is no URL as this is 
not a conventional website. The user runs a script which launches Safari 
and apache; everything runs locally on the user's machine. I just happen 
to be using a web browser for presentation and ajax to activate PHP 
scripts for backend stuff.

> If the element is part of the static markup of the document then
> I would expect stuff like dimensions to be known "onload".

So would I :-)

I may try knocking up a little testbed and seeing what happens there, 
and with other browsers.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4141

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:14:27 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

>There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd 
>like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to 
>calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to 
>either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
>
>So, I'm doing something like [1]:
>
>h = 
>document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
>
>where e is a pointer to my element.

Try

h = e.offsetHeight;

instead, which is simpler.

>But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function, 
>I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after 
>waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
>
>So when are these style values set? The reason for this is to avoid what 
>I do at the moment: compute the true height by hand and just have a 
>JavaScript variable initialised to that value.

>[1] If/when I can sort this I can collect the border/margin/padding 
>values too.

The answer is utterly simple. If some JavaScript program changes
the height, then the style values are set exactly after that
JavaScript program has finished its work and before the next one
starts.

Hans-Georg

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#4142

Hans-Georg Michna wrote on 13 jul 2011 in comp.lang.javascript:

> The answer is utterly simple. If some JavaScript program changes
> the height, then the style values are set exactly after that
> JavaScript program has finished its work and before the next one
> starts.

This is not about a programme, but about script-execution.

When during a timeOut the DOM is updated, 
I would not call that aa new start of a Javascript programme.

Perhaps we only differ in the definition of "programme"?

-- 
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

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#4143

In article <s47r17ljum3pluv5sln2e2vn618ovv8hhu@4ax.com>,
 Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:14:27 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:
> 
> >There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd 
> >like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to 
> >calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to 
> >either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
> >
> >So, I'm doing something like [1]:
> >
> >h = 
> >document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
> >
> >where e is a pointer to my element.
> 
> Try
> 
> h = e.offsetHeight;
> 
> instead, which is simpler.
> 
> >But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function, 
> >I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after 
> >waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
> >
> >So when are these style values set? The reason for this is to avoid what 
> >I do at the moment: compute the true height by hand and just have a 
> >JavaScript variable initialised to that value.
> 
> >[1] If/when I can sort this I can collect the border/margin/padding 
> >values too.
> 
> The answer is utterly simple. If some JavaScript program changes
> the height, then the style values are set exactly after that
> JavaScript program has finished its work and before the next one
> starts.

Not really. I'm trying to *read* the values as soon as I can be sure 
that the element exists - in the onload handler. No JavaScript of mine 
has attempted to set the height (or margin-top etc) before that. And I 
don't want it to - I want to use CSS to define everything, and *read* it 
with javaScript.

It usually helps to read the question before giving an answer.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4203

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:49:00 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

>In article <s47r17ljum3pluv5sln2e2vn618ovv8hhu@4ax.com>,
> Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:

>> The answer is utterly simple. If some JavaScript program changes
>> the height, then the style values are set exactly after that
>> JavaScript program has finished its work and before the next one
>> starts.

>Not really. I'm trying to *read* the values as soon as I can be sure 
>that the element exists - in the onload handler. No JavaScript of mine 
>has attempted to set the height (or margin-top etc) before that. And I 
>don't want it to - I want to use CSS to define everything, and *read* it 
>with javaScript.
>
>It usually helps to read the question before giving an answer.

Sorry, but you had written earlier: "But I find that if I do
this right at the start of the onload function, I get back a
zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after waiting
for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.

I could not rule out that the Ajax calls change the height, so
that seemed like the most likely explanation.

If not, then I have to assume that onload fires before the page
is completely loaded, including its linked CSS files. That's
news to me. Can anybody here confirm or deny it?

Hans-Georg

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#4204

In article <n1cu17taggf1k9e05euq2u9gugknlv63a3@4ax.com>,
 Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:49:00 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:
> 
> >In article <s47r17ljum3pluv5sln2e2vn618ovv8hhu@4ax.com>,
> > Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:
> 
> >> The answer is utterly simple. If some JavaScript program changes
> >> the height, then the style values are set exactly after that
> >> JavaScript program has finished its work and before the next one
> >> starts.
> 
> >Not really. I'm trying to *read* the values as soon as I can be sure 
> >that the element exists - in the onload handler. No JavaScript of mine 
> >has attempted to set the height (or margin-top etc) before that. And I 
> >don't want it to - I want to use CSS to define everything, and *read* it 
> >with javaScript.
> >
> >It usually helps to read the question before giving an answer.
> 
> Sorry, but you had written earlier: "But I find that if I do
> this right at the start of the onload function, I get back a
> zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after waiting
> for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
> 
> I could not rule out that the Ajax calls change the height, so
> that seemed like the most likely explanation.

Fair enough :-)

> If not, then I have to assume that onload fires before the page
> is completely loaded, including its linked CSS files. That's
> news to me. Can anybody here confirm or deny it?

I'm using Safari 5.0.5 under OS X 10.6.8, I should add.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4207

On Jul 13, 2:14 am, Tim Streater <timstrea...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd
> like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to
> calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to
> either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
>
> So, I'm doing something like [1]:
>
> h =
> document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
>
> where e is a pointer to my element.
>
> But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function,
> I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after
> waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
>
> So when are these style values set? The reason for this is to avoid what
> I do at the moment: compute the true height by hand and just have a
> JavaScript variable initialised to that value.
>
> [1] If/when I can sort this I can collect the border/margin/padding
> values too.

You should note that you have posted the same question here:

<URL: http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#
>


--
Rob

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#4208

On 15/07/2011 9:08 AM, RobG wrote:
> On Jul 13, 2:14 am, Tim Streater<timstrea...@greenbee.net>  wrote:

> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
>
> <URL: http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#

Its slightly ironic that a js newsgroup gives js errors and doesn't 
display properly on my IE 9.

Andrew Poulos

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#4215

On 07/15/2011 01:08 AM, RobG wrote:
> On Jul 13, 2:14 am, Tim Streater<timstrea...@greenbee.net>  wrote:
>> There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd........
>
> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
>
> <URL: http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#
> --
> Rob

What leads you to suspect that he doesn't know that he has posted the 
question in two newsgroups? Or do you think he shouldn't do that?

Steve.

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#4218

In article 
<7b74185d-54dd-4680-b9e4-b0b5586709c1@h25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
 RobG <rgqld@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> On Jul 13, 2:14 am, Tim Streater <timstrea...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > There are some elements in one of my app's pages whose height values I'd
> > like to get as soon as possible, since I want to use the values to
> > calculate and set heights of other elements. And I'd like to be able to
> > either get the element's natural height or one I set using CSS.
> >
> > So, I'm doing something like [1]:
> >
> > h =
> > document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(e,null).getPropertyValue("height");
> >
> > where e is a pointer to my element.
> >
> > But I find that if I do this right at the start of the onload function,
> > I get back a zero value, whereas if I do it a bit later (e.g. after
> > waiting for some ajax calls to complete), then I get the proper value.
> >
> > So when are these style values set? The reason for this is to avoid what
> > I do at the moment: compute the true height by hand and just have a
> > JavaScript variable initialised to that value.
> >
> > [1] If/when I can sort this I can collect the border/margin/padding
> > values too.
> 
> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
> 
> <URL: 
> http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#

And guess what: I got an intelligent answer and suggestion for 
workaround there, too.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4219

Tim Streater wrote:

> RobG <rgqld@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
>> 
>> <URL:
>> 
http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#

Ouch.
 
> And guess what: I got an intelligent answer and suggestion for
> workaround there, too.

The fact that their[tm] crystal balls work slightly better than ours[tm] 
does not mean that your question was a smart one.

To that end, you want to read the FAQ and 
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>.


PointedEars
-- 
var bugRiddenCrashPronePieceOfJunk = (
    navigator.userAgent.indexOf('MSIE 5') != -1
    && navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Mac') != -1
)  // Plone, register_function.js:16

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#4223

In article <2976520.SPkdTlGXAF@PointedEars.de>,
 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
> 
> > RobG <rgqld@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
> >> 
> >> <URL:
> >> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#
> 
> Ouch.
>  
> > And guess what: I got an intelligent answer and suggestion for
> > workaround there, too.
> 
> The fact that their[tm] crystal balls work slightly better than ours[tm] 
> does not mean that your question was a smart one.

Don't be silly. My question was clear and concise and contained all the 
necessary information (apart from which browser I was trying), as is 
evidenced by the answers on jsmentors.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4228

Tim Streater wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>> Tim Streater wrote:
>> > RobG <rgqld@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> >> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
>> >> 
>> >> <URL:
>> >> 
>> 
http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c6405d8#
>> 
>> Ouch.
>>  
>> > And guess what: I got an intelligent answer and suggestion for
>> > workaround there, too.
>> 
>> The fact that their[tm] crystal balls work slightly better than ours[tm]
>> does not mean that your question was a smart one.
> 
> Don't be silly.

Pot, kettle, black.

> My question was clear and concise

Obviously too concise, leading to guessing games.  And it was asked in two 
places at once, which is reasonably frowned upon.

> and contained all the necessary information

No, it did not.  You did not post the relevant "ajax calls", that in your 
opinion made the difference, for example.

> (apart from which browser I was trying),

Yet another example of what was missing.  Runtime environments of ECMAScript 
implementations are much too different to be negligent in providing 
pertinent information about them.

> as is evidenced by the answers on jsmentors.

I have nothing else to add to my initial statements.


F'up2 PointedEars
-- 
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
  -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)

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#4229

In article <1640814.eSNOYOoDGQ@PointedEars.de>,
 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:

> > Don't be silly.
> 
> Pot, kettle, black.

Don't be silly.

> > My question was clear and concise
> 
> Obviously too concise, leading to guessing games.  And it was asked in two 
> places at once, which is reasonably frowned upon.

If I don't get an answer in one place, I'll try another.

> > and contained all the necessary information
> 
> No, it did not.  You did not post the relevant "ajax calls", that in your 
> opinion made the difference, for example.

The ajax calls themselves are not relevant, except in so far as they 
provided a delay, as a considerable amount of initialisation is done - 
but not of any element heights. And it's not my "opinion", but the 
result of testing, using the easiest method available to see whether a 
delay had any effect. It did, and I reported the fact. And that itself 
*was* relevant, as evidenced by the response in jsmentors.

> I have nothing else to add to my initial statements.

Good. I suggest you keep it that way. In fact, I'm not sure why you 
chipped in at all. If you don't know the answer (and there's nothing 
wrong with that), then keep quiet rather than starting a pointless 
meta-discussion.

> F'up2 PointedEars

Not they're not.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#4236

Tim Streater wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>> Tim Streater wrote:
>> > Don't be silly.
>> Pot, kettle, black.
> 
> Don't be silly.

I am not going to repeat myself.
 
>> > My question was clear and concise
>> 
>> Obviously too concise, leading to guessing games.  And it was asked in
>> two places at once, which is reasonably frowned upon.
> 
> If I don't get an answer in one place, I'll try another.

Fair enough, in this case.
 
>> > and contained all the necessary information
>> 
>> No, it did not.  You did not post the relevant "ajax calls", that in your
>> opinion made the difference, for example.
> 
> The ajax calls themselves are not relevant,

Yes, they are.

> except in so far as they provided a delay, as a considerable amount of
> initialisation is done - but not of any element heights.  […]

You are still missing the point, even though it has been explained to you.

>> I have nothing else to add to my initial statements.
> 
> Good. I suggest you keep it that way. In fact, I'm not sure why you
> chipped in at all. If you don't know the answer (and there's nothing
> wrong with that), then keep quiet rather than starting a pointless
> meta-discussion.

You are way out of line, mister.
 
>> F'up2 PointedEars
> 
> Not they're not.

Apparently not, as you have impolitely ignored my request to reply via
e-mail only, too.


Score adjusted

PointedEars
-- 
    realism:    HTML 4.01 Strict
    evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict
    madness:    XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml
                                                    -- Bjoern Hoehrmann

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#4237

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>>> I have nothing else to add to my initial statements.
>> Good. I suggest you keep it that way. In fact, I'm not sure why you
>> chipped in at all. If you don't know the answer (and there's nothing
>> wrong with that), then keep quiet rather than starting a pointless
>> meta-discussion.
> 
> You are way out of line, mister.
> […]
> Score adjusted

Never mind.  I can see now that it was only your change of From address that 
got you out of my killfile.


PointedEars
-- 
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
  -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)

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#4238

On Jul 15, 1:50 pm, Tim Streater <timstrea...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <2976520.SPkdTlG...@PointedEars.de>,
>  Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedE...@web.de> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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> > Tim Streater wrote:
>
> > > RobG <rg...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > >> You should note that you have posted the same question here:
>
> > >> <URL:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_frm/thread/97771feb3c...
>
> > Ouch.
>
> > > And guess what: I got an intelligent answer and suggestion for
> > > workaround there, too.
>
> > The fact that their[tm] crystal balls work slightly better than ours[tm]
> > does not mean that your question was a smart one.
>
> Don't be silly. My question was clear and concise and contained all the
> necessary information (apart from which browser I was trying), as is
> evidenced by the answers on jsmentors.
>
Where the style for `e` is defined? Is it in style attribute? An
external stylesheet? In a STYLE element in the head?

Thanks.
--
Garrett

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#4242

In article 
<3f5e837b-b881-44fd-a5b2-1632be2d684a@r5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
 dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Where the style for `e` is defined? Is it in style attribute? An
> external stylesheet? In a STYLE element in the head?

It's in an external style sheet.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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