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proper use of .java files (layout)

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  proper use of .java files (layout) infinitum3d@hotmail.com - 2012-12-16 07:38 -0800
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-16 16:43 +0100
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-16 10:50 -0500
      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-12-16 16:25 -0500
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) markspace <-@.> - 2012-12-16 08:24 -0800
      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 10:28 -0800
        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) markspace <-@.> - 2012-12-17 13:17 -0800
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 13:51 -0800
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 20:55 -0500
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-17 18:18 -0800
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 21:28 -0500
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-17 21:10 -0800
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 08:53 -0500
                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 09:13 -0800
                      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-18 09:23 -0800
                        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 13:49 -0500
                          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 15:05 -0800
                          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:11 -0500
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 21:07 -0500
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-19 09:33 +0000
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-19 10:12 -0800
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:35 -0800
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-12-19 15:55 -0600
                                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 14:01 -0800
                                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-12-19 16:05 -0600
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-19 04:06 -0800
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-19 12:24 +0000
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:36 -0800
                        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:10 -0500
                      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-12-18 12:14 -0600
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:04 -0500
                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-19 10:14 -0800
                      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-19 19:18 -0500
                        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-20 11:05 +0000
                          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:43 -0500
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 18:49 -0800
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 22:10 -0500
                        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-20 09:01 -0800
                          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-20 09:30 -0800
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-20 13:35 -0800
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-20 14:00 -0800
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-21 08:58 +0000
                                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-12-21 10:36 -0800
                                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-21 18:43 +0000
                                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 22:05 -0500
                                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 09:57 +0000
                                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:59 -0500
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:53 -0500
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:54 -0500
                          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:48 -0500
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-27 21:11 -0800
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-12-28 06:50 -0500
                            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 13:46 +0000
                              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-28 09:10 -0800
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 09:50 +0000
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-12-18 13:09 +0000
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 14:05 +0000
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-25 15:06 -0800
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-26 06:31 -0800
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-26 13:21 -0800
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-26 23:38 -0500
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-27 08:37 +0000
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-27 11:51 +0100
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-12-27 08:46 -0800
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-27 18:20 +0100
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 20:48 -0500
        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 20:58 -0500
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-17 18:22 -0800
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 21:39 -0500
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 21:25 -0500
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 21:29 -0500
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 21:32 -0500
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 21:37 -0500
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Wayne <nospam@all.invalid> - 2012-12-18 18:45 -0500
                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:13 -0500
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) infinitum3d@hotmail.com - 2012-12-16 09:23 -0800
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) infinitum3d@hotmail.com - 2012-12-16 21:07 -0800
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 10:32 +0000
      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-17 21:03 -0500
        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 09:34 +0000
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:00 -0500
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:01 -0500
    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) infinitum3d@hotmail.com - 2012-12-18 06:32 -0800
      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 15:05 +0000
        Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 11:07 -0500
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 16:27 +0000
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 11:44 -0500
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 17:21 +0000
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 09:21 -0800
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 17:39 +0000
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 10:40 -0800
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 19:05 +0000
                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 15:15 -0800
                Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 14:12 -0500
                  Re: proper use of .java files (layout) lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-18 19:39 +0000
                    Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-18 15:17 -0800
          Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 20:07 -0500
            Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-18 21:11 -0500
              Re: proper use of .java files (layout) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-18 22:24 -0500
      Re: proper use of .java files (layout) markspace <-@.> - 2012-12-18 10:35 -0800

Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]

#20488

On 12/18/2012 4:34 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 18/12/12 02:03, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/17/2012 5:32 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> Here is a possible outline for a simple card game component
>>> It has NOT been compiled.
>>
>> And it will not.
>
> Really, well thank you for pointing that out
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Java is well suited to an 'Object Oriented' approach to software design
>>> The above outline is just one of many possible OO solutions.
>>
>>
>> A Deck constructor with just the number of jokers would make
>> more sense to me.
>
> Like I said, it was just an outline.
>
> In my house we play games that use a subset of a complete deck,
> sometimes we play a game that uses only the lower ranks of several packs
> of cards
>
> A Pack of cards contains 54 cards including two jokers.
> a Deck of cards contains the cards required to play a game, not the same
> thing at all ... hey look, we're already starting to come up with some
> new classes, cool huh.

That would not be the definitions I would use.

But you could certainly define them that way.

Arne

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#20489

On 12/18/2012 4:34 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> These type of questions/issues would come out in the wash. You need a
> place to start, often the final result looks nothing like the first
> iteration. Object Oriented software engineering is an iterative process.
> More that that it is a state of mind.

OO A/D/P should be independent of waterfall vs iterative.

Arne

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#20446

Wow! Lots of great discussion going on here.

This in no way, shape, or form negates or takes away anything from any of the wonderful comments already posted, but let me add some details to help clarify the original post;

As stated in the OP, I consider a deck to be 52 cards with 4 suits. Those suits are Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades. Aces could be valued as 1 or 11.

I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time. I've never done a card game before, so I will start with something extremely minor, perhaps a Memory style game where you have 52 cards face down in 4 rows of 13. You turn them over two at a time and hope for a matching pair (by face/value, ie. 2 of Hearts and 2 of Spades). Maybe I'll start even smaller, with only 16 cards.

Eventually I would like to progress to something like Magic: The Gathering (or the Alchemy droid app) with several hundreds of cards, with various values and abilities.

Thank you all again for your comments. They are extremely helpful.

I3D

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#20447

On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:

> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.

Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....

I suggest you start writing some code

Start with Card ... what form should Card take, from what you've said 
I'll venture that Card might be abstract, all cards have a value 
(assumption) so the value could be in Card or at least a placeholder to 
be getting on with ... maybe Value is a Class or Interface the value of 
a card could be '2' or 'gatekeeper' or 'Death' if you are playing Tarot.

DefaultCard could extend this, DefaultCard might have a 'Rank' so an 
instance of DefaultCard might contain a 2 (from Card) and a 'Heart' from 
DefaultCard .. the two of Hearts. TarotCard extends Card, some tarots 
have values some don't, that's OK, it's still a Card.

More importantly your Deck will deal with Cards only
List<Card> deck doesn't say anything about Card other than it is a Card, 
it can still be shuffled, dealt, cut etc etc, where do you think the 
methods deal, shuffle and cut go ? Once this is out of the way you will 
find yourself overwhelmed with ideas for card games, maybe you can even 
invent your own, you've already got the base abstractions written and tested

Don't get too caught up in the detail to begin with, get the grunt work 
out of the way first and MOST IMPORTANTLY don't be afraid to throw code 
away, If you make a mistake you will have learned something, use that 
knowledge to improve your design and move on.

Let us know how you get on.

Good luck and enjoy

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20448

On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>
> Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
> The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....
>
> I suggest you start writing some code

     He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
"start writing some code?"

     Ye flippin' gods.

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#20449

On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>>
>> Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
>> The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....
>>
>> I suggest you start writing some code
>
> He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
> "start writing some code?"
>
> Ye flippin' gods.

Yes, start writing code
What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.

I bet you have a pre-meeting meeting to discuss what to discuss in the 
meeting don't you. Ye gods and little Indians, I've battled with the 
likes of you all my professional life. I always deliver though because I 
get code down and learn from it.

Write code, make mistakes, refactor, reiterate ... LEARN

Or sit on your hands lamenting your inability to get past the first obstacle

jeez

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20450

On 12/18/2012 11:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>>>
>>> Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
>>> The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....
>>>
>>> I suggest you start writing some code
>>
>> He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
>> "start writing some code?"
>>
>> Ye flippin' gods.
>
> Yes, start writing code
> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>
> I bet you have a pre-meeting meeting to discuss what to discuss in the
> meeting don't you. Ye gods and little Indians, I've battled with the
> likes of you all my professional life. I always deliver though because I
> get code down and learn from it.
>
> Write code, make mistakes, refactor, reiterate ... LEARN
>
> Or sit on your hands lamenting your inability to get past the first
> obstacle

     The nice part about working with no goal in mind
is that you can declare victory whenever it suits you.
Don't raise the bar: Hide it!

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#20454

On 18/12/12 16:44, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 11:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote:

[snip]
>
> The nice part about working with no goal in mind
> is that you can declare victory whenever it suits you.
> Don't raise the bar: Hide it!

Yes of course, you are right. The secret to a long career in software 
engineering is to hide the bar ... now I know where I've been going 
wrong all these years.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20455

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
<lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>>>
>>> Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
>>> The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....
>>>
>>> I suggest you start writing some code
>>
>> He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
>> "start writing some code?"
>>
>> Ye flippin' gods.
>
>Yes, start writing code
>What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.

     I suggest that designing comes before writing code.

>I bet you have a pre-meeting meeting to discuss what to discuss in the 
>meeting don't you. Ye gods and little Indians, I've battled with the 

     Straw man.

     No, but I do work out what is needed in terms of features and
then work out the sorts of entities that I will need to implement
these.

>likes of you all my professional life. I always deliver though because I 
>get code down and learn from it.

     I write code, too, but the measure of a system is not just the
code.  Its organisation counts for a lot.

>Write code, make mistakes, refactor, reiterate ... LEARN

     Or one can design and make far fewer mistakes.

>Or sit on your hands lamenting your inability to get past the first obstacle

     Another straw man.

>jeez

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#20457

On 18/12/12 17:21, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:

[snip]

>> Yes, start writing code
>> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>
>       I suggest that designing comes before writing code.

I agree ... but if you are suggesting that you do all the designing 
before you start to write a line of code then I humbly suggest that that 
approach is fundamentally and profoundly flawed.

Just IME mind you, I'm sure you are not suggesting that.

Actually I suggest that they proceed in parallel.

>> I bet you have a pre-meeting meeting to discuss what to discuss in the
>> meeting don't you. Ye gods and little Indians, I've battled with the
>
>       Straw man

Cheese sandwich
.
>
>       No, but I do work out what is needed in terms of features and
> then work out the sorts of entities that I will need to implement
> these.

Entities, hmm, a word heavy with meaning to anyone who has ever written 
EJBs. We deal in Classes, packages, components and Interfaces in Object 
Oriented software engineering with Java, entities reflect persistence 
schemata.

<Makes sweeping statement then withdraws to safe distance>

>> likes of you all my professional life. I always deliver though because I
>> get code down and learn from it.
>
>       I write code, too, but the measure of a system is not just the
> code.  Its organisation counts for a lot.

Concur

>
>> Write code, make mistakes, refactor, reiterate ... LEARN
>
>       Or one can design and make far fewer mistakes.

Well this depends on your approach to design doesn't it (see above)

>> Or sit on your hands lamenting your inability to get past the first obstacle
>
>       Another straw man.

Egg mayo on Rye, easy on the mayo

I forgotten how much fun the Usenet thing can be.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20461

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:39:02 +0000, lipska the kat
<lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/12/12 17:21, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
>> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>> Yes, start writing code
>>> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>>
>>       I suggest that designing comes before writing code.
>
>I agree ... but if you are suggesting that you do all the designing 
>before you start to write a line of code then I humbly suggest that that 
>approach is fundamentally and profoundly flawed.

     No, but I do design code before I write it.  The big design comes
first, then pieces of smaller design, then the code associated with
the smaller design.  Repeat the last two steps as needed.

>Just IME mind you, I'm sure you are not suggesting that.
>
>Actually I suggest that they proceed in parallel.

     For a given piece of code, design comes first.

>>> I bet you have a pre-meeting meeting to discuss what to discuss in the
>>> meeting don't you. Ye gods and little Indians, I've battled with the
>>
>>       Straw man
>
>Cheese sandwich

>>       No, but I do work out what is needed in terms of features and
>> then work out the sorts of entities that I will need to implement
>> these.
>
>Entities, hmm, a word heavy with meaning to anyone who has ever written 
>EJBs. We deal in Classes, packages, components and Interfaces in Object 
>Oriented software engineering with Java, entities reflect persistence 
>schemata.
>
><Makes sweeping statement then withdraws to safe distance>

     Or simply a word meaning something of interest.  If code, it
might be a class or a procedure.  It might also be who is using the
system, the hardware required, and so.  It could also be things one
must consider such as privacy laws.

>>> likes of you all my professional life. I always deliver though because I
>>> get code down and learn from it.
>>
>>       I write code, too, but the measure of a system is not just the
>> code.  Its organisation counts for a lot.
>
>Concur
>
>>
>>> Write code, make mistakes, refactor, reiterate ... LEARN
>>
>>       Or one can design and make far fewer mistakes.
>
>Well this depends on your approach to design doesn't it (see above)

     Of course.  How could it be otherwise?

>>> Or sit on your hands lamenting your inability to get past the first obstacle
>>
>>       Another straw man.
>
>Egg mayo on Rye, easy on the mayo
>
>I forgotten how much fun the Usenet thing can be.

     Maybe you should consider a conversation with colleagues a higher
priority than trolling.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#20468

On 18/12/12 18:40, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:39:02 +0000, lipska the kat
> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk>  wrote:

[snip]

>
>       No, but I do design code before I write it.  The big design comes
> first, then pieces of smaller design, then the code associated with
> the smaller design.  Repeat the last two steps as needed.
>
>> Just IME mind you, I'm sure you are not suggesting that.
>>
>> Actually I suggest that they proceed in parallel.
>
>       For a given piece of code, design comes first.

Well if you call the mental process that we go through when we write a 
piece of code 'design' then I agree but are you really saying that you 
have never just written some code to test your thoughts BEFORE you 
commit your thoughts to a formal model ... I find that hard to believe

[snip]

>       Maybe you should consider a conversation with colleagues a higher
> priority than trolling.

Yes, this is an interesting point.
It's often appears to be the case that if someone doesn't agree with you 
then they are trolling ... I often disagree with people but I don't call 
them trolls.

Disappointing but sadly predictable.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20484

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:05:55 +0000, lipska the kat
<lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/12/12 18:40, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:39:02 +0000, lipska the kat
>> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>>       No, but I do design code before I write it.  The big design comes
>> first, then pieces of smaller design, then the code associated with
>> the smaller design.  Repeat the last two steps as needed.
>>
>>> Just IME mind you, I'm sure you are not suggesting that.
>>>
>>> Actually I suggest that they proceed in parallel.
>>
>>       For a given piece of code, design comes first.
>
>Well if you call the mental process that we go through when we write a 
>piece of code 'design' then I agree but are you really saying that you 
>have never just written some code to test your thoughts BEFORE you 
>commit your thoughts to a formal model ... I find that hard to believe

     Of course I have.  My thoughts?  They are the first part of the
design for that code.

>[snip]
>
>>       Maybe you should consider a conversation with colleagues a higher
>> priority than trolling.
>
>Yes, this is an interesting point.
>It's often appears to be the case that if someone doesn't agree with you 
>then they are trolling ... I often disagree with people but I don't call 
>them trolls.

     I did not call you a troll.  To be precise, you are leaning that
way.

>Disappointing but sadly predictable.

     And here I thought you were enjoying USENET.  You did state "I
forgotten how much fun the Usenet thing can be." upthread.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#20469

On 12/18/2012 12:39 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 18/12/12 17:21, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
>> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Yes, start writing code
>>> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>>
>>       I suggest that designing comes before writing code.
>
> I agree ... but if you are suggesting that you do all the designing
> before you start to write a line of code then I humbly suggest that that
> approach is fundamentally and profoundly flawed.

     Gene does not appear to take any such position, and I
most certainly do not.  One need not (usually cannot) complete
all of the design ahead of time, because the implementation
process itself will produce surprises pleasant and unpleasant,
and these can be "learning opportunities."  Knuth suggests the
learning can be so valuable that it can be a Good Thing to lose
all the code partway through development! (TAOCP section 1.4.1)

     However, the fraction of design to be completed before
embarking on construction need not be an integer.  When you
propose "all" as the only alternative to "none," you are being
silly.  When you claim that people who disagree with you
subscribe to that false dichotomy, you are being an ass.

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#20471

On 18/12/12 19:12, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 12:39 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 18/12/12 17:21, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
>>> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> Yes, start writing code
>>>> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>>>
>>> I suggest that designing comes before writing code.
>>
>> I agree ... but if you are suggesting that you do all the designing
>> before you start to write a line of code then I humbly suggest that that
>> approach is fundamentally and profoundly flawed.
>
> Gene does not appear to take any such position,

I'm sure 'Gene' can speak for himself.

>and I most certainly do not.

Glad to hear it

> One need not (usually cannot) complete
> all of the design ahead of time, because the implementation
> process itself will produce surprises pleasant and unpleasant,
> and these can be "learning opportunities." Knuth suggests the
> learning can be so valuable that it can be a Good Thing to lose
> all the code partway through development! (TAOCP section 1.4.1)

Yeees, and how many MD's, clients and other stake holders/bill payers 
will fall for that one. You're not an academic by any chance are you. I 
employed an academic once ... he lasted three days, couldn't even get 
Eclipse to work. Or maybe I'm being an ass again.

> However, the fraction of design to be completed before
> embarking on construction need not be an integer.

You HAVE to be an academic, only an academic would come out with that one.

> When you
> propose "all" as the only alternative to "none," you are being
> silly.

I wasn't claiming any such thing, I was asking a question, or is THAT 
also trolling now.

 > When you claim that people who disagree with you
 > subscribe to that false dichotomy, you are being an ass.

Ah, name calling, how quaint.

Really I expected better that this 'Gene' seems to be vaguely grounded 
in reality but you are all negative so far.

Shame

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#20485

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:39:58 +0000, lipska the kat
<lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/12/12 19:12, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 12/18/2012 12:39 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 18/12/12 17:21, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:28 +0000, lipska the kat
>>>> <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/12/12 16:07, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>> Yes, start writing code
>>>>> What do you suggest he does, Sit there twiddling his fingers.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest that designing comes before writing code.
>>>
>>> I agree ... but if you are suggesting that you do all the designing
>>> before you start to write a line of code then I humbly suggest that that
>>> approach is fundamentally and profoundly flawed.
>>
>> Gene does not appear to take any such position,
>
>I'm sure 'Gene' can speak for himself.

     I sure can, but what Eric wrote states my case wonderfully well.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#20492

On 12/18/2012 11:07 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>>
>> Interesting, what do our procedural programmer(s) make of this then.
>> The OP isn't sure what game he will be programming ....
>>
>> I suggest you start writing some code
>
>      He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
> "start writing some code?"

If we are talking about a real project that is going to end up
with XXX KLOC, then start coding would be pointless.

But for a beginner wanting to learn programming and Java, then
start coding may actually be a fine advice.

Arne

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#20507

On 12/18/2012 8:07 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 11:07 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this time.
>>>
>>> I suggest you start writing some code
>>
>>      He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
>> "start writing some code?"
>
> If we are talking about a real project that is going to end up
> with XXX KLOC, then start coding would be pointless.

     On the contrary: If your goal is to accumulate KLOC so you
can boast about them at your salary review, you should *never*
waste time in design!

> But for a beginner wanting to learn programming and Java, then
> start coding may actually be a fine advice.

     He who is aimless can never miss.

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#20511

On 12/18/2012 9:11 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 8:07 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/18/2012 11:07 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 12/18/2012 10:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 18/12/12 14:32, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not exactly sure what card game I will be programming at this
>>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you start writing some code
>>>
>>>      He doesn't know what he wants to do, yet your advice is
>>> "start writing some code?"
>>
>> If we are talking about a real project that is going to end up
>> with XXX KLOC, then start coding would be pointless.
>
>      On the contrary: If your goal is to accumulate KLOC so you
> can boast about them at your salary review, you should *never*
> waste time in design!

Funny.

>> But for a beginner wanting to learn programming and Java, then
>> start coding may actually be a fine advice.
>
>      He who is aimless can never miss.

If he learns to code Java, then it does not matter
much if the resulting code changes along the way.

If he starts at the top with let us say ZF, then I can
almost guarantee that he will neither learn Java nor
get any working code out of it.

Arne

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#20460

On 12/18/2012 6:32 AM, infinitum3d@hotmail.com wrote:

> Wow! Lots of great discussion going on here.

It's just the normal noises in here.  We'll argue about anything really.

> time. I've never done a card game before, so I will start with
> something extremely minor, perhaps a Memory style game where you have

Don't forget that if you do make a standard deck, then nothing will 
match.  Unless you match on the values only, for example, and ignore suits.

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