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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #15821 > unrolled thread
| Started by | bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-07-05 08:01 -0700 |
| Last post | 2012-07-06 05:22 -0700 |
| Articles | 11 on this page of 71 — 16 participants |
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Java processors bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-07-05 08:01 -0700
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-05 11:28 -0400
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-05 13:00 -0500
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-05 14:31 -0400
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-05 16:42 -0500
Re: Java processors Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-05 20:30 -0400
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-05 21:12 -0500
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-06 00:13 -0400
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 13:26 -0700
Re: Java processors Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-06 13:50 -0700
Re: Java processors Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 14:17 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 19:07 -0700
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 09:34 -0500
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-07 21:01 -0700
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-08 00:28 -0500
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-07 23:00 -0700
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-08 10:20 -0500
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-08 09:16 -0700
Re: Java processors Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-08 17:46 +0000
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-08 11:52 -0700
Re: Java processors Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-08 21:41 +0000
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-08 17:56 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-08 19:44 -0700
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-09 23:41 -0700
Re: Java processors David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-07-16 13:22 -0400
Re: Java processors Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 14:03 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-08 19:42 -0700
Re: Java processors Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-07-10 01:13 +0200
Re: Java processors Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 16:26 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-11 15:41 -0700
Re: Java processors Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-07-12 01:02 +0200
Re: Java processors Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-21 18:46 +0200
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-21 13:05 -0400
Re: Java processors Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-21 19:23 +0200
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-21 14:10 -0400
Re: Java processors Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-23 01:17 +0200
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-22 20:15 -0400
Re: Java processors Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-07-22 15:13 +0200
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 19:03 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-08 19:51 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-07 21:17 -0700
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-07 23:04 -0700
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-08 09:29 -0700
Re: Java processors Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-08 11:57 -0700
Re: Java processors Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-08 15:40 +0200
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-08 10:36 -0500
Re: Java processors Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 11:31 -0700
Re: Java processors Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-07-05 13:02 -0600
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-05 16:09 -0500
Re: Java processors Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2012-07-06 01:29 +0200
Re: Java processors Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-06 00:42 +0000
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 13:53 -0700
Re: Java processors Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-06 21:18 +0000
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-06 18:17 -0400
Re: Java processors Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-06 22:29 +0000
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 19:10 -0700
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 09:42 -0500
Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-07 10:58 -0400
(OT) Was: Re: Java processors Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-07 11:38 -0400
Re: (OT) Was: Re: Java processors Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-07 21:19 -0700
Re: (OT) Was: Re: Java processors "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> - 2012-07-08 12:15 +0200
Re: Java processors Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-07 21:17 -0700
Re: Java processors Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-07-05 19:14 -0600
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 13:34 -0700
Re: Java processors Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2012-07-06 23:04 +0200
Re: Java processors Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2012-07-07 00:13 +0200
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 19:16 -0700
Re: Java processors "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> - 2012-07-08 11:37 +0200
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 13:24 -0700
Re: Java processors BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 10:06 -0500
Re: Java processors Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-06 05:22 -0700
Page 4 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4]
| From | "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-08 12:15 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: (OT) Was: Re: Java processors |
| Message-ID | <slrnjvinei.ugf.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at> |
| In reply to | #15867 |
On 2012-07-08 04:19, Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:38:13 -0400, Eric Sosman
><esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> wrote:
>> The Wikipedia article on the VSE makes interesting reading. This
>>bit I found somewhat eyebrow-raising:
>>
>> The history of the exchange's index provides a standard case
>> example of large errors arising from seemingly innocuous
>> floating point calculations. [...] The accumulated truncations
>> led to an erroneous loss of around 25 points per month."
>>
>>Not enough RAM to retain the "unimportant" digits?
>
> Probably not. I would blame the use of FP.
Actually, it looks like they used a *fixed point* representation (3
decimal digits), not a floating point representation (although that
doesn't make much difference in this case since the magnitude stays
about the same). The obvious error is that they always truncated the
value, thus accumulating the error[1]. If they had rounded to nearest
most errors would have cancelled out. If they had used double precision
binary floating point numbers and not rounded to 3 decimal digits after
each trade the error would have been too small to notice (about 1 point
in 30 million years).
Anyway, that's a great example. I will use it in the next "binary
floating point is evil" discussion ;-).
hp
[1] The second error was that they tried to compute the new value from
the old value and the change at all - that's pretty much guarantueed
to accumulate some error over time.
--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | Deprecating human carelessness and
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | ignorance has no successful track record.
| | | hjp@hjp.at |
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Bill Code on asrg@irtf.org
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-07 21:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ec2iv7dr6hd1ietna3ustvupcien8tms58@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #15854 |
On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 19:10:56 -0700, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:17:49 -0400, Eric Sosman
><esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
>someone who said :
>
>> "MEGAbytes? Looxurry. Moi 'ole college campus 'ad a grand
>>total of 128 KILObytes,[*] an' we wuz glad to 'ave it, we wuz.
>>But yew troi tellin' the kids nawadays ..."
>
>Univac made a unit record handling computer with 16K. Yet we had
>threads in the thing and look-ahead i/o. Someday people won't believe
>this. A beast like this ran the Vancouver Stock exchange.
I think that it would be a good idea to run people through the
CARDIAC book. Let them program something with tight memory
constraints.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-05 19:14 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <ydnhatln127.fsf@shell.xmission.com> |
| In reply to | #15831 |
Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> writes: > Jim Janney schrieb: >> Back in the day Niklaus Wirth had a system that was optimised for >> running Modula-2, with its own processor and operating system written in >> Modula-2. I don't remember now what it was called. > > Do you mean? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith_%28computer%29 That's the one, thank you. The idea of writing an OS entirely in a higher-level language was still pretty novel. I think the Unix kernel was running about 20% assembly at the time. -- Jim Janney
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-06 13:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <diiev7h6vgd8dsco65qbm5i3n6otuuhfic@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #15825 |
On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:02:44 -0600, Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Back in the day Niklaus Wirth had a system that was optimised for >running Modula-2, with its own processor and operating system written in >Modula-2. I don't remember now what it was called. Lilith. see http://www.ethistory.ethz.ch/rueckblicke/departemente/dinfk/forschung/weitere_seiten/lilith/index_EN/popupfriendly/ -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Why do so many operating systems refuse to define a standard temporary file marking mechanism? It could be a reserved lead character such as the ~ or a reserved extension such as .tmp. It could be a file attribute bit. Because they refuse, there is no fool-proof way to scan a disk for orphaned temporary files and delete them. Further, you can't tell where the orhaned files ame from. This means the hard disks gradually fill up with garbage.
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| From | Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-06 23:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <jt7jta$421$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #15842 |
Roedy Green schrieb: > On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:02:44 -0600, Jim Janney > <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted > someone who said : > >> Back in the day Niklaus Wirth had a system that was optimised for >> running Modula-2, with its own processor and operating system written in >> Modula-2. I don't remember now what it was called. > Lilith. > see > http://www.ethistory.ethz.ch/rueckblicke/departemente/dinfk/forschung/weitere_seiten/lilith/index_EN/popupfriendly/ > But it was not the only machine used in teaching those days. In the vincinity of the ETH one could find in the mid 80's: - CDC via Batch - VAX via Tektronic - Apple ][ - Lilith - Sun 3/60 - Cray-2 via Batch - What else? And in personal use: - MZ 80K - Atari ST - Amiga 500 - Macintosh - What else? The fun thing was moving code from one platform to another. But it didn't happen that often. Corresponding concern only arised more deeply 10 years later. Bye
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| From | Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-07 00:13 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <4ff76318$0$6958$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #15845 |
On 07/06/2012 11:04 PM, Jan Burse wrote: > - CDC via Batch > - VAX via Tektronic > - Apple ][ > - Lilith > - Sun 3/60 > - Cray-2 via Batch > - What else? I used to love working on a DEC-PDP11 running Unix. A great machine and it had a Modula 2 compiler to boot. > > And in personal use: > > - MZ 80K > - Atari ST That one was awesome. I still have mine collecting dust in the attic. Back then (somewhere around 1986) I built a preemptive (timer interrupt based) threading library for it. It allowed any number of C functions to be run "in parallel" with each other and the main thread, only limited by the available memory to be allocated as thread stacks. Built quite some cool games with that. Ah, the good old days... Silvio
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-06 19:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rn6fv79nijqg0e0are4vpjj1863mre30ms@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #15848 |
On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:13:44 +0200, Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I used to love working on a DEC-PDP11 running Unix. A great machine and >it had a Modula 2 compiler to boot. The magic for me was the OS that did not crash several times a day. I loved writing assembler for it. It was so logical. I think of C as a high level assembler for it. One of the most fun machines was the MINC with RT-11. It has all kinds of real world interface i/o boards in it. I used it to control a complicated solar energy experiment. Is DEC/VAX still around? -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Why do so many operating systems refuse to define a standard temporary file marking mechanism? It could be a reserved lead character such as the ~ or a reserved extension such as .tmp. It could be a file attribute bit. Because they refuse, there is no fool-proof way to scan a disk for orphaned temporary files and delete them. Further, you can't tell where the orhaned files ame from. This means the hard disks gradually fill up with garbage.
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| From | "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-08 11:37 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <slrnjvil7h.ugf.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at> |
| In reply to | #15855 |
On 2012-07-07 02:16, Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:13:44 +0200, Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> > wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > >>I used to love working on a DEC-PDP11 running Unix. A great machine and >>it had a Modula 2 compiler to boot. [...] > One of the most fun machines was the MINC with RT-11. [...] > > Is DEC/VAX still around? DEC replaced the VAX architecture (which was quite different from the PDP11 architecture) with the Alpha architecture 20 years ago. DEC was bought by Compaq a few years later which in turn was bought by HP. There may still be VAXes running, though (I've seen one just a few years ago). hp -- _ | Peter J. Holzer | Deprecating human carelessness and |_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | ignorance has no successful track record. | | | hjp@hjp.at | __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Bill Code on asrg@irtf.org
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-06 13:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <maiev71aajsf2asa665vd2l00ktb11t6m1@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #15823 |
On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:00:23 -0500, BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >and, of those, AFAIK, ARM's Jazelle was the only one to really gain much >widespread adoption, and even then is largely being phased out in favor >of ThumbEE, where the idea is that instead of using direct execution, a >lightweight JIT or similar is used instead. RAM cost has dropped precipitously. However, originally it very limit. If you did not need a JIT you could use that RAM for the application. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Why do so many operating systems refuse to define a standard temporary file marking mechanism? It could be a reserved lead character such as the ~ or a reserved extension such as .tmp. It could be a file attribute bit. Because they refuse, there is no fool-proof way to scan a disk for orphaned temporary files and delete them. Further, you can't tell where the orhaned files ame from. This means the hard disks gradually fill up with garbage.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-07 10:06 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <jt9jdt$uca$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #15840 |
On 7/6/2012 3:24 PM, Roedy Green wrote: > On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:00:23 -0500, BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote, > quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > >> and, of those, AFAIK, ARM's Jazelle was the only one to really gain much >> widespread adoption, and even then is largely being phased out in favor >> of ThumbEE, where the idea is that instead of using direct execution, a >> lightweight JIT or similar is used instead. > > RAM cost has dropped precipitously. However, originally it very > limit. If you did not need a JIT you could use that RAM for the > application. > yeah, one can sometimes forget about small amounts of RAM. a while back, I was faced with a mystery of something like "how would I run my VM on a target which only allows 16MB of RAM per application?". looked at process size when firing up basic interpreter: ~ 80MB. ended up adding a feature to down-size a lot of the hash tables, which shaved off a reasonable amount, and a lot was also going into the initial start-up heap (64MB), which was then reduced to 16MB, ... eventually this effort died off due to a lack of relevance. a bigger issue at the moment actually tends to be the amount of RAM being eaten up mostly by VM metadata (~ 100MB at present), which would likely require a more compact representation (at present, it is mostly stored as a large in-memory tree structure vaguely similar to an AVL tree, except with a 3-way node split). not that it matters much on typical a desktop PC, especially as the world is in the transition to 64-bits anyways.
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-06 05:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <n1mdv75spnhj1nrd4tr52hr6nnhkh0bmd3@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #15821 |
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >What ever happened to those processors that were supposed to run Java natively? > >Did Sun or anyone else ever make those? For some reason the early designs had a big problem with heat. This is very bad thing in a portable unit where low power is the main goal. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Why do so many operating systems refuse to define a standard temporary file marking mechanism? It could be a reserved lead character such as the ~ or a reserved extension such as .tmp. It could be a file attribute bit. Because they refuse, there is no fool-proof way to scan a disk for orphaned temporary files and delete them. Further, you can't tell where the orhaned files ame from. This means the hard disks gradually fill up with garbage.
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