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java developers

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  java developers curixinfotech <curixinfotech.540mfz@no-mx.forums.yourdomain.com.au> - 2011-11-30 07:14 -0500
    Re: java developers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-30 07:55 -0500
      Re: java developers Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-30 06:32 -0800
        Re: java developers Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-11-30 09:41 -0800
        Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-02 17:03 -0500
          Re: java developers Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-12-02 14:30 -0800
            Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-02 18:40 -0500
              Re: java developers Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-12-03 14:42 +0000
                Re: java developers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-12-03 10:09 -0500
                  Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-04 22:17 -0500
                Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-04 22:11 -0500
      Re: java developers curixinfotech <curixinfotech.54dibz@no-mx.forums.yourdomain.com.au> - 2011-12-07 05:56 -0500
    Re: java developers Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-12-02 01:48 -0800
    Re: java developers Rajiv Gupta <rajiv@invalid.com> - 2011-12-02 22:16 +1100
      Re: java developers David Segall <david@address.invalid> - 2011-12-02 23:17 +1100
        Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-02 16:29 -0500
          Re: java developers David Segall <david@address.invalid> - 2011-12-03 15:15 +1100
      Re: java developers Henk van Voorthuijsen <voorth@xs4all.nl> - 2011-12-02 03:39 -0800
      Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-02 14:43 +0100
      Re: java developers Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-12-02 07:32 -0800
      Re: java developers Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2011-12-02 18:18 +0100
        Re: java developers Rajiv Gupta <rajiv@invalid.com> - 2011-12-04 10:50 +1100
          Re: java developers Wojtek <nowhere@a.com> - 2011-12-03 19:43 -0800
          Re: java developers Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-12-04 10:56 +0000
          Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-05 11:00 +0100
            Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-05 22:38 -0500
              Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-06 10:33 +0100
            Re: java developers Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-12-06 21:17 +0000
              Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-07 15:09 +0100
    Re: java developers dsnitelex@gmail.com - 2011-12-02 21:51 -0800
      Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-03 10:51 +0100
        Re: java developers Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-12-03 11:41 -0400
        Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-04 22:28 -0500
          Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-05 10:31 +0100
            Re: java developers Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-12-05 22:35 -0500
              Re: java developers Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-12-06 10:25 +0100
          Re: java developers Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-12-06 21:10 +0000
      Re: java developers BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2011-12-05 22:52 -0800
        Re: java developers Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-12-06 06:49 -0400

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#10355 — java developers

why java is the language of choice for Developers.


-- 
curixinfotech
------------------------------------------------------------------------
curixinfotech's Profile: http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/member.php?userid=134
View this thread: http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/showthread.php?t=3272

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#10356

On 11/30/2011 7:14 AM, curixinfotech wrote:
> why java is the language of choice for Developers.

     For the same reason that Sanskrit is the language of choice
for botanists.

     In other words, the question's premise is flawed: There is
no single "language of choice," but a choice of languages.
Different languages have different characteristics that make
them more or less suitable for a particular set of tasks.  Some
languages are chosen often, some are chosen infrequently -- but
no language is chosen always, and no "serious" language is chosen
never.

     Questions very like yours are sometimes posed by people seeking
to enter the programming trade and wondering which language to build
a career on.  If that's your situation, then once again the question
makes little sense.  This is a fashion-driven industry in many ways,
where languages and frameworks and disciplines and paradigms rise and
fall like hem lines.  You may make a career as a programer, but you
will not make a career as a Java programmer or as a Python programmer
or as a COBOL programmer or as an AnySingleLanguage programmer.  Expect
to use many languages over time, some regularly and repeatedly, some
just a few times in special cases.  If you're the world's best Java
programmer but will not learn Guava or Canberra or Mastodon or
whatever the next fashion is, your career will be brief and boring.

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

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#10363

Eric Sosman wrote:
>      Questions very like yours are sometimes posed by people seeking
> to enter the programming trade and wondering which language to build
> a career on.  If that's your situation, then once again the question
> makes little sense.  This is a fashion-driven industry in many ways,
> where languages and frameworks and disciplines and paradigms rise and
> fall like hem lines.  You may make a career as a programer, but you
> will not make a career as a Java programmer or as a Python programmer
> or as a COBOL programmer or as an AnySingleLanguage programmer.  Expect
> to use many languages over time, some regularly and repeatedly, some
> just a few times in special cases.  If you're the world's best Java
> programmer but will not learn Guava or Canberra or Mastodon or
> whatever the next fashion is, your career will be brief and boring.

Not entirely true.  There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there who don't need much of a second language.  There are AnySingleLanguage programmer career tracks that are long and boring.

-- 
Lew
Rhetoric aside, I don't actually hate COBOL, nor recommend against it.

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#10369

On 11/30/2011 6:32 AM, Lew wrote:
> Eric Sosman wrote:
>>       Questions very like yours are sometimes posed by people seeking
>> to enter the programming trade and wondering which language to build
>> a career on.  If that's your situation, then once again the question
>> makes little sense.  This is a fashion-driven industry in many ways,
>> where languages and frameworks and disciplines and paradigms rise and
>> fall like hem lines.  You may make a career as a programer, but you
>> will not make a career as a Java programmer or as a Python programmer
>> or as a COBOL programmer or as an AnySingleLanguage programmer.  Expect
>> to use many languages over time, some regularly and repeatedly, some
>> just a few times in special cases.  If you're the world's best Java
>> programmer but will not learn Guava or Canberra or Mastodon or
>> whatever the next fashion is, your career will be brief and boring.
>
> Not entirely true.  There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there who don't need much of a second language.  There are AnySingleLanguage programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>

I think a good strategy is to begin by learning a popular language that
shows up in a lot of job ads, and also learn at least one language that
is very different from it.

The point of learning a very different second language early is
insurance against needing to learn other languages later. Some people
who learn only one language initially build its assumptions so deeply
into their thinking that they cannot learn to program effectively in any
other language.

That is fine if they guess right, and the first language is going to
stay popular for another 50 years. It was a disaster, for example, for
some people who learned an assembly language in the 1960's and could not
shift to high level languages in the 1980's and 90's.

Patricia

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#10436

On 11/30/2011 9:32 AM, Lew wrote:
> Eric Sosman wrote:
>>       Questions very like yours are sometimes posed by people seeking
>> to enter the programming trade and wondering which language to build
>> a career on.  If that's your situation, then once again the question
>> makes little sense.  This is a fashion-driven industry in many ways,
>> where languages and frameworks and disciplines and paradigms rise and
>> fall like hem lines.  You may make a career as a programer, but you
>> will not make a career as a Java programmer or as a Python programmer
>> or as a COBOL programmer or as an AnySingleLanguage programmer.  Expect
>> to use many languages over time, some regularly and repeatedly, some
>> just a few times in special cases.  If you're the world's best Java
>> programmer but will not learn Guava or Canberra or Mastodon or
>> whatever the next fashion is, your career will be brief and boring.
>
> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
> who
> don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.

I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been
able to cover an entire worklife as mainstream language.

Maybe Java has joined it in 35 years. But no gurantee (and C
is most likely to become the second language in this category).

Arne

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#10443

On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>> who
>> don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>
> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been
> able to cover an entire worklife as mainstream language.

What about Fortran?

Of course, the field is limited. If one assumes a work-life is about 50
years (ages 20 to 70), a contender needed to be a mainstream language in
the early 1960's.

Patricia

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#10444

On 12/2/2011 5:30 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>>> who
>>> don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>>
>> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been
>> able to cover an entire worklife as mainstream language.
>
> What about Fortran?

I don't think there are enough Fortran jobs today to ensure a career.

> Of course, the field is limited.

There are simply not that many full time jobs in scientific programming.

>                                  If one assumes a work-life is about 50
> years (ages 20 to 70), a contender needed to be a mainstream language in
> the early 1960's.

True.

But a good chunk of the mid 60's to late 70's language are already
gone today.

Anything besides C and C++ that could make it before Java?

PL/I and Ada seems to be out as mainstream today.

Arne

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#10468

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:40:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 12/2/2011 5:30 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>> On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>>>> who don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>>>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>>>
>>> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been able to cover
>>> an entire worklife as mainstream language.
>>
>> What about Fortran?
> 
> I don't think there are enough Fortran jobs today to ensure a career.
>
Did the NAG library ever get translated from Fortran to another language, 
e.g. C ?  

I remember some years ago hearing that the cost of doing that translation 
and associated revalidation would prevent serious numeric work ever 
migrating away from Fortran.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#10469

On 12/3/2011 9:42 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:40:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 12/2/2011 5:30 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>>>>> who don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>>>>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>>>>
>>>> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been able to cover
>>>> an entire worklife as mainstream language.
>>>
>>> What about Fortran?
>>
>> I don't think there are enough Fortran jobs today to ensure a career.
>>
> Did the NAG library ever get translated from Fortran to another language,
> e.g. C ?
>
> I remember some years ago hearing that the cost of doing that translation
> and associated revalidation would prevent serious numeric work ever
> migrating away from Fortran.

     A few years ago I attended a presentation on a high-performance
implementation of the BLAS package.  The driver code that set up
matrices and called BLAS to manipulate them was in C, and one could
not help noticing that the array accesses looked like `matrix[j][i]'.

     In light of the subscript order in the C code, what might we
guess about the language BLAS' users are expected to write?

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

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#10513

On 12/3/2011 10:09 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 12/3/2011 9:42 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:40:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/2/2011 5:30 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>>>>>> who don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>>>>>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been able to cover
>>>>> an entire worklife as mainstream language.
>>>>
>>>> What about Fortran?
>>>
>>> I don't think there are enough Fortran jobs today to ensure a career.
>>>
>> Did the NAG library ever get translated from Fortran to another language,
>> e.g. C ?
>>
>> I remember some years ago hearing that the cost of doing that translation
>> and associated revalidation would prevent serious numeric work ever
>> migrating away from Fortran.
>
> A few years ago I attended a presentation on a high-performance
> implementation of the BLAS package. The driver code that set up
> matrices and called BLAS to manipulate them was in C, and one could
> not help noticing that the array accesses looked like `matrix[j][i]'.
>
> In light of the subscript order in the C code, what might we
> guess about the language BLAS' users are expected to write?

The original BLAS are still Fortran 77.

I believe that C versions has been created, but given that the
Fortran version is callable from C, then they may not have gotten
much traction.

Arne

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#10512

On 12/3/2011 9:42 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:40:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/2/2011 5:30 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2011 2:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> Not entirely true. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there
>>>>> who don't need much of a second language. There are AnySingleLanguage
>>>>> programmer career tracks that are long and boring.
>>>>
>>>> I think Cobol is the only language so far that have been able to cover
>>>> an entire worklife as mainstream language.
>>>
>>> What about Fortran?
>>
>> I don't think there are enough Fortran jobs today to ensure a career.
>>
> Did the NAG library ever get translated from Fortran to another language,
> e.g. C ?

According to http://www.nag.com/intro/AvailLis.pl yes.

Arne

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#10587

Hi
Eric Sosman
your ans is good and reasonable for java language on my Q why java is
the language of choice for Developers and your attractive reason i like
Sanskrit is the language of choice for botanists.

thanks 
curixinfotech


-- 
curixinfotech
------------------------------------------------------------------------
curixinfotech's Profile: http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/member.php?userid=134
View this thread: http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/showthread.php?t=3272

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#10416

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 07:14:37 -0500, curixinfotech
<curixinfotech.540mfz@no-mx.forums.yourdomain.com.au> wrote, quoted or
indirectly quoted someone who said :

>why java is the language of choice for Developers.
 see comp.lang.java.advocacy for breast beating
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
For me, the appeal of computer programming is that
even though I am quite a klutz,
I can still produce something, in a sense
perfect, because the computer gives me as many
chances as I please to get it right.
 

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#10418

On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:

> why java is the language of choice for Developers.

If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should 
make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a 
proper software company (not by hobbyist maintainers) so the quality is 
very good.

Visual Basic is very advanced language (it doesn't require line 
numbers) and it supports structured programming.  You cannot go wrong 
with it.

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#10419

Rajiv Gupta <rajiv@invalid.com> wrote:

>On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:
>
>> why java is the language of choice for Developers.
>
>If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should 
>make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a 
>proper software company 

Alas that's not true. I will reluctantly concede that Microsoft is a
"proper software company" but they stopped supporting Visual Basic 6
in 2008. They substituted a completely new language called VB.Net.
There seemed no assurance that Microsoft would not scrap VB.Net in the
future so I decided to migrate my applications to Java. It has the
advantage that it is supported by several major software vendors
including IBM and Oracle so it cannot be discontinued simply because
one company decides it should go.   

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#10435

On 12/2/2011 7:17 AM, David Segall wrote:
> Rajiv Gupta<rajiv@invalid.com>  wrote:
>> On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:
>>> why java is the language of choice for Developers.
>>
>> If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should
>> make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a
>> proper software company
>
> Alas that's not true. I will reluctantly concede that Microsoft is a
> "proper software company" but they stopped supporting Visual Basic 6
> in 2008. They substituted a completely new language called VB.Net.
> There seemed no assurance that Microsoft would not scrap VB.Net in the
> future so I decided to migrate my applications to Java. It has the
> advantage that it is supported by several major software vendors
> including IBM and Oracle so it cannot be discontinued simply because
> one company decides it should go.

I doubt that it was serious meant.

Arne

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#10458

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

>On 12/2/2011 7:17 AM, David Segall wrote:
>> Rajiv Gupta<rajiv@invalid.com>  wrote:
>>> On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:
>>>> why java is the language of choice for Developers.
>>>
>>> If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should
>>> make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a
>>> proper software company
>>
>> Alas that's not true. I will reluctantly concede that Microsoft is a
>> "proper software company" but they stopped supporting Visual Basic 6
>> in 2008. They substituted a completely new language called VB.Net.
>> There seemed no assurance that Microsoft would not scrap VB.Net in the
>> future so I decided to migrate my applications to Java. It has the
>> advantage that it is supported by several major software vendors
>> including IBM and Oracle so it cannot be discontinued simply because
>> one company decides it should go.
>
>I doubt that it was serious meant.

That occurred to me but it may have been taken seriously. In addition
I think my reasons for migrating to Java provide part of the answer to
the OP's question. Anyway, it gave me a chance to vent my anger at
Microsoft's extraordinary decision to make millions of lines of code,
written in Visual Basic Classic, obsolete.

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#10420

On Dec 2, 12:16 pm, Rajiv Gupta <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:
>
> > why java is the language of choice for Developers.
>
> If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should
> make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a
> proper software company (not by hobbyist maintainers) so the quality is
> very good.
>
> Visual Basic is very advanced language (it doesn't require line
> numbers) and it supports structured programming.  You cannot go wrong
> with it.

Nice try, Microsoft.

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#10421

On 12/02/2011 12:16 PM, Rajiv Gupta wrote:
> On 2011-11-30 23:14:37 +1100, curixinfotech said:
>
>> why java is the language of choice for Developers.
>
> If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should make
> a deep study of Visual Basic. Visual Basic is supported by a proper
> software company (not by hobbyist maintainers) so the quality is very good.
>
> Visual Basic is very advanced language (it doesn't require line numbers)
> and it supports structured programming. You cannot go wrong with it.
>

Assuming you are joking I will submit this was good for a loud laugh.

You are joking, aren't you???

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#10425

Rajiv Gupta wrote:
> curixinfotech said:
> 
>> why java [sic] is the language of choice for Developers [sic].
> 
> If you are truly serious about becoming a developer then you should 

Hard to tell.  He didn't ask a question or even make a statement.

> make a deep study of Visual Basic.  Visual Basic is supported by a 
> proper software company (not by hobbyist maintainers) so the quality is 
> very good.
> 
> Visual Basic is very advanced language (it doesn't require line 
> numbers) and it supports structured programming.  You cannot go wrong 
> with it.

Funny.

(Thus baiting another Language War.)

You actually can go horribly wrong with Visual Basic.  I don't mean just in the way you can with any language, but in ways specific to Visual Basic, like for example using it for enterprise programming of mainframe back ends.

Which you can't.

Like every computer language, Visual Basic has use cases and it has scenarios for which it is utterly inappropriate.  Don't listen to people who tell you that "Language X" is the One True Way.  Follow the advice of the people here who (well, most of whom) recommended learning more than one language.

-- 
Lew

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