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How to develop without an IDE?

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  How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-22 11:18 -0400
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-04-22 16:22 +0000
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:22 +0100
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:44 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 15:03 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 11:24 -0300
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:07 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:07 -0300
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:10 -0700
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-25 21:04 -0300
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:29 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:32 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-30 07:09 -0300
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:16 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:19 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 18:56 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:15 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:45 -0400
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 09:58 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:10 -0400
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:13 -0700
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:34 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:35 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:09 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:23 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:03 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-01 16:18 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:33 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:21 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:49 -0400
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:07 +0000
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:26 -0400
                                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 11:38 +0000
                                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-05-06 08:41 -0700
                                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:24 -0700
                                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:18 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:12 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:08 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 00:57 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 13:48 +0100
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:17 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 20:55 -0400
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-04-22 08:41 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 12:36 -0400
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-22 11:35 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 17:21 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 19:45 -0400
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 20:28 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-22 23:57 -0500
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 02:06 -0500
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-23 02:09 -0500
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-23 01:26 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 04:36 -0500
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-23 21:11 +0200
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:15 +0100
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:44 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 21:15 -0300
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:33 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 18:59 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:43 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:44 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-24 20:23 +0000
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:18 -0700
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:42 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-24 08:38 +0200
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:36 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:09 +0100
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-25 07:55 +0200
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:18 +0100
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:37 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 01:01 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:20 -0700
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:50 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:17 -0400
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:27 -0400
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 11:16 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-29 14:33 -0400
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 22:48 -0700
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:03 -0400
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:59 -0700
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:09 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 11:01 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:21 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 14:20 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-05-02 14:41 -0700
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:52 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:31 -0400
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-06 14:19 -0700
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-07 11:16 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-22 10:17 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-22 19:11 +0000
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:43 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-04-22 23:32 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-23 00:33 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-04-23 10:25 -0700
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:38 +0100
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:50 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-23 16:21 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 22:09 -0300
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:53 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:12 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:16 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:14 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:11 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-29 13:21 +0200
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? JussiJ <jussij@zeusedit.com> - 2012-05-07 07:19 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:46 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:47 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:59 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:20 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 21:00 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:36 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 20:54 -0400
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:05 +0100
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:07 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:13 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:15 -0300
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:59 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 14:24 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:59 -0700
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 17:19 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 17:12 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:00 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-04-26 02:17 +1000
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:24 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 10:02 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? sony.gupta32@yahoo.co.uk - 2012-08-30 02:29 -0700
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-08-30 19:58 +0000
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 13:16 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-02 14:04 -0700

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#13816

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:15:30 +0100, Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Is it possible to set up a Java project so that it can be built without 
>relying on an IDE?  If it is, where can I find any information on how to set 
>up this sort of project?  

see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ant.html
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
When you were a child, if you did your own experiment
to see if it was better to put to cocoa into your cup first
or the hot milk first, then you likely have the programmer gene..

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#13821

On 4/22/12 8:15 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Is it possible to set up a Java project so that it can be built without
> relying on an IDE?  If it is, where can I find any information on how to set
> up this sort of project?
>
> Bonus points if it's possible to pull this off by writing a single makefile.
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Rui Maciel
for small scale projects, a command line works perfectly well.

I would run commands such as: javac net/virtualinfinity/myproject/Main.java

Once in a while I'd have to do a rm `find . | grep ".class$"` and the 
like to do a "clean" build.

Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!

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#13826

Daniel Pitts wrote:

> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!

They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects, 
particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.  
Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by 
hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.


Rui Maciel

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#13828

On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by
> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.


Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I was a 
vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features provided by modern 
IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text editor provides.

If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant 
regard to my IDE, I'd like to see what those features are, and know 
which editor provides them.  Productivity is important to me, so if 
there's a productivity tool out there that I'm missing, I'd like to know.

(And I'd like actual objective features, please.  If this degenerates 
into trolling editor wars... well, you'll know when I start ignoring 
your posts.  "Don't feed the trolls.")

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#13829

On 4/23/2012 3:50 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>
>>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>>
>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
>> editors.
>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build
>> process by
>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
>
>
> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor. 10 years ago I was a
> vim (actually just vi) fan. No longer. The features provided by modern
> IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text editor provides.
>
> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant
> regard to my IDE, I'd like to see what those features are, and know
> which editor provides them. Productivity is important to me, so if
> there's a productivity tool out there that I'm missing, I'd like to know.
>
> (And I'd like actual objective features, please. If this degenerates
> into trolling editor wars... well, you'll know when I start ignoring
> your posts. "Don't feed the trolls.")

Same here.

I have absolutely no nostalgia for the way I started programming, coding
sheets and punch cards, so I have always been quite open to changing how
I edit code.

Currently, I use Eclipse. I use Eclipse's refactoring capabilities a
lot, not just during formal refactoring passes but also while I'm
writing new code.

However, if there is a significantly better way of editing Java code,
I'd like to know about it.

Patricia

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#13839

On 12-04-23 07:50 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>
>>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>>
>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
>> editors.
>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build
>> process by
>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
> 
> 
> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I was a
> vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features provided by modern
> IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text editor provides.

I agree. For Java I'll use Eclipse or NetBeans or IDEA. For C++ it's
Eclipse or Code::Blocks or VS. For C# it's VS or MonoDevelop. For
Haskell it's Leksah. For Scala it's Eclipse (well, Scala IDE) and maybe
soon NetBeans. For XML I prefer XMLMind XML Editor. Lazarus for Pascal.
Etc etc.

I actually write Clojure using VIM because it has good "GNU screen"
integration with consoles for REPLs. That's maybe the only holdout.

Some languages barely need an IDE, and may not have one really. J is
like that, you can write an entire complex program in a few dozen lines
so who needs an IDE? :-)

> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant
> regard to my IDE, I'd like to see what those features are, and know
> which editor provides them.  Productivity is important to me, so if
> there's a productivity tool out there that I'm missing, I'd like to know.
> 
> (And I'd like actual objective features, please.  If this degenerates
> into trolling editor wars... well, you'll know when I start ignoring
> your posts.  "Don't feed the trolls.")

I'm fond of TextWrangler on Mac OS X, Notepad++ on Windows, and Sublime
Text 2 on basically everything (:-)). I use them in the one situation
where they are superior to an IDE, which is that I don't have to launch
an IDE. In a nutshell. A lot of files have nothing whatsoever to do with
a "project", for example. In other cases an IDE may expose parts of
server configuration but I want to edit the raw text, or get at parts
that aren't exposed.

That's about the only objective feature I can think of, that IDEs are
not meant for editing every file you've got.

AHS
-- 
A fly was very close to being called a "land," cause that's what they do
half the time.
-- Mitch Hedberg

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#13844

 wrote:

> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I was a
> vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features provided by modern
> IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text editor provides.
> 
> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant
> regard to my IDE
<snip/>

If you read what I wrote, I said that, in some aspects (which, to me, there 
are a considerable number), some text editors are better than IDEs.  I did 
not said that there was any editor which "is superior in any significant 
regard to" any IDE.  IDEs are purpose-built for the task of developing 
software, which also integrate a significant number of features which are 
fundamental to the task of developing software.  Therefore, it would be 
really odd if every piece of software which was developed with the sole 
purpose of helping developers write their software ended up doing the exact 
opposite in every conceivable aspect related to that job. 

Nonetheless, we should understand that there is no such thing as a "one size 
fits all" solution.  No IDE is the best tool for every conceivable scenario 
ever faced by every programmer that ever lived.  One way to prove this is by 
pointing out the fact that there is more than a single IDE out there, and 
even in this day there are fools who waste their time with IDE flame wars 
complaining how their IDE is better than someone else's, and how those who 
don't use a specific IDE are somehow idiots and trolls.

Now, just to point out how a "modern IDE" is inadequate in some 
circumstances, I can point you to those cases where a programmer, for some 
reason, happens to need to work on some project with one of those flimsy 
netbook computers, the ones with tiny monitors and limited disk space.  
Running an IDE on one of those systems is an experience that only a 
masochist can enjoy, and even then he would have trouble doing any work.  
Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find a bunch of text editors that work perfectly 
well with those limitations.


Rui Maciel

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#13851

On 4/24/2012 5:53 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I
>> was a vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features
>> provided by modern IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text
>> editor provides.
>>
>> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any
>> significant regard to my IDE
> <snip/>
>
> If you read what I wrote, I said that, in some aspects (which, to
> me, there are a considerable number), some text editors are better
> than IDEs.  I did


What you wrote was, with the full context:

On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
> editors. Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the
> build process by hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.


"A considerable number of aspects."  Which is greatly different that 
"some," according to my grade school English teacher.


> Nonetheless, we should understand that there is no such thing as a
> "one size fits all" solution.  No IDE is the best tool for every
> conceivable scenario ever faced by every programmer that ever lived.


Which was going to be my next point.  I still use vim, grep, find, 
strings, zip/jar as well as any other tool that happens to be the best 
for the job at the time.  I've got no problem using a different editor 
for a job if it happens to provide some cool feature that I need.  I'm 
happy with my IDE is most respects, but sometimes I do use a different 
tool if it does something my current tool won't.


> Now, just to point out how a "modern IDE" is inadequate in some
> circumstances, I can point you to those cases where a programmer,
> for some reason, happens to need to work on some project with one of
> those flimsy netbook computers, the ones with tiny monitors and
> limited disk space. Running an IDE on one of those systems is an
> experience that only a masochist can enjoy, and even then he would
> have trouble doing any work. Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find a
> bunch of text editors that work perfectly well with those
> limitations.


Weak sauce.  I do develop on a flimsy notebook with a small screen 
exclusively -- a Fujitsu Lifebook.  And with a couple of mouse clicks my 
IDE will expand to full screen (and back, with a couple of more).  If I 
bother to use the actual options menu, I can increase the font size to 
anything I like. (I just increased it to 14 point, just to check it.  I 
can read my text from across the room now!)

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#13857

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:12:00 -0700, markspace <-@.> wrote:

[snip]

>"A considerable number of aspects."  Which is greatly different that 
>"some," according to my grade school English teacher.

     I hope you fired him.

     How many aspects?  Say, 32.  Is that a considerable number of
aspects?  Yes.  Does 32 qualify as some?  Yes.

     "A considerable number of aspects" is a subset of "some".  Since
one includes the other, they are not greatly different.

     Your statement is like claiming that white dogs and dogs are
greatly different.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#13852

On 4/24/2012 5:53 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I
>> was a vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features
>> provided by modern IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text
>> editor provides.
>>
>> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any
>> significant regard to my IDE
> <snip/>
>
> If you read what I wrote, I said that, in some aspects (which, to
> me, there are a considerable number), some text editors are better
> than IDEs.  I did


What you wrote was, with the full context:

On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
> editors. Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the
> build process by hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.


"A considerable number of aspects."  Which is greatly different that 
"some," according to my grade school English teacher.


> Nonetheless, we should understand that there is no such thing as a
> "one size fits all" solution.  No IDE is the best tool for every
> conceivable scenario ever faced by every programmer that ever lived.


Which was going to be my next point.  I still use vim, grep, find, 
strings, zip/jar as well as any other tool that happens to be the best 
for the job at the time.  I've got no problem using a different editor 
for a job if it happens to provide some cool feature that I need.  I'm 
happy with my IDE is most respects, but sometimes I do use a different 
tool if it does something my current tool won't.


> Now, just to point out how a "modern IDE" is inadequate in some
> circumstances, I can point you to those cases where a programmer,
> for some reason, happens to need to work on some project with one of
> those flimsy netbook computers, the ones with tiny monitors and
> limited disk space. Running an IDE on one of those systems is an
> experience that only a masochist can enjoy, and even then he would
> have trouble doing any work. Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find a
> bunch of text editors that work perfectly well with those
> limitations.


Weak sauce.  I do develop on a flimsy notebook with a small screen 
exclusively -- a Fujitsu Lifebook.  And with a couple of mouse clicks my 
IDE will expand to full screen (and back, with a couple of more).  If I 
bother to use the actual options menu, I can increase the font size to 
anything I like. (I just increased it to 14 point, just to check it.  I 
can read my text from across the room now!)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14002

On 4/24/2012 8:53 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Modern IDEs are far superior to any text editor.  10 years ago I was a
>> vim (actually just vi) fan.  No longer.  The features provided by modern
>> IDEs are leaps and bounds beyond what any text editor provides.
>>
>> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant
>> regard to my IDE

> Nonetheless, we should understand that there is no such thing as a "one size
> fits all" solution.  No IDE is the best tool for every conceivable scenario
> ever faced by every programmer that ever lived.  One way to prove this is by
> pointing out the fact that there is more than a single IDE out there, and
> even in this day there are fools who waste their time with IDE flame wars
> complaining how their IDE is better than someone else's, and how those who
> don't use a specific IDE are somehow idiots and trolls.

????

it was you that starting call people trolls!

> Now, just to point out how a "modern IDE" is inadequate in some
> circumstances, I can point you to those cases where a programmer, for some
> reason, happens to need to work on some project with one of those flimsy
> netbook computers, the ones with tiny monitors and limited disk space.
> Running an IDE on one of those systems is an experience that only a
> masochist can enjoy, and even then he would have trouble doing any work.
> Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find a bunch of text editors that work perfectly
> well with those limitations.

It is certainly true.

But does not really related to your original claim about features.

And it is not a particular important aspect for a discussion about
development tools as netbooks are not intended for that purpose.

Arne

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#14016

On 24.04.2012 14:53, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Nonetheless, we should understand that there is no such thing as a "one size
> fits all" solution.  No IDE is the best tool for every conceivable scenario
> ever faced by every programmer that ever lived.

You apply a common discussion method here: make the claim of the other 
side much bigger than what actually was said to make it easy to show how 
absurd it is.

Please stop posting commonplaces like this and discuss concrete claims - 
not abstract statements about tool A vs. tool B as you did before.

> Now, just to point out how a "modern IDE" is inadequate in some
> circumstances, I can point you to those cases where a programmer, for some
> reason, happens to need to work on some project with one of those flimsy
> netbook computers, the ones with tiny monitors and limited disk space.
> Running an IDE on one of those systems is an experience that only a
> masochist can enjoy, and even then he would have trouble doing any work.
> Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find a bunch of text editors that work perfectly
> well with those limitations.

If a program needs to be deployed on such a machine this does not 
automatically mean that it needs to be edited or compiled there.

Regards

	robert

-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#14360

On Apr 23, 3:50 pm, markspace <-@.> wrote:
> On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:

> If you can show me a text editor that is superior in any significant
> regard to my IDE.

I might be biased but I think Zeus is a darn good programming editor.

> I'd like to see what those features are, and know which editor
> provides them

What defines a killer feature is always very subjective and
hard to define.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus Editor

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#13833

On Monday, April 23, 2012 3:38:47 PM UTC-7, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
> 
> > Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
> 
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects, 
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.  
> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by 
> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.

Baloney. Love the vague statements, "tend to be inferior" without specifics or statistics. Classic Troll-speak.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_war>

Duck season!
Wabbit season!
Duck season!
Wabbit season!
Wabbit season! 
Duck season!
BLAM!

-- 
Lew

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#13843

Lew wrote:

> Baloney. Love the vague statements, "tend to be inferior" without
> specifics or statistics. Classic Troll-speak.

Noticed that you, in the same paragraph, assert that no text editor is 
superior to an IDE, complain about the absense of "specifics or statistics", 
and then proceed with throwing troll accusations and references to any 
hypothetical editor war.

Meanwhile, the post you've replied to doesn't mention any of that, and it 
does so due to a simple fact that you've missed: this is not, nor it ever 
was supposed to be, an editor war.  Everyone uses the tools they choose to 
use, and if everyone is happy with their choice then all is well.  
Criticising others for using a different tool than the one they chose is a 
complete waste of time.  I didn't made that mistake.  So, I wonder why you 
chose to make it.

To make things as clear as possible for you, this discussion is never, nor 
it will be, about which editor is better than some other editor.  It is 
about setting up an automatic build process that doesn't rely on a IDE.  If 
you wish to waste your time going off on a tangent about any given IDE fares 
against a text editor then go for it.  I can tell you I won't make that 
mistake, nor any reasonable person.


Rui Maciel

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#14000

On 4/24/2012 7:47 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Meanwhile, the post you've replied to doesn't mention any of that, and it
> does so due to a simple fact that you've missed: this is not, nor it ever
> was supposed to be, an editor war.  Everyone uses the tools they choose to
> use, and if everyone is happy with their choice then all is well.
> Criticising others for using a different tool than the one they chose is a
> complete waste of time.  I didn't made that mistake.  So, I wonder why you
> chose to make it.
 >
 > To make things as clear as possible for you, this discussion is 
never, nor
 > it will be, about which editor is better than some other editor.

You actually wrote:

#They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
#particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
#editors.

If you did not want to discuss IDE vs editor, then do not bring
up the topic.

Very simple!

>                                                                     It is
> about setting up an automatic build process that doesn't rely on a IDE.

It has been explained to you many times that ant and maven are the tools
to use.

And they can be used command line, inside an IDE or from a text editor
with capabilities to run external tools.

Arne

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#13858

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:46:46 -0700 (PDT), Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, April 23, 2012 3:38:47 PM UTC-7, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> 
>> > Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>> 
>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects, 
>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.  
>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by 
>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
>
>Baloney. Love the vague statements, "tend to be inferior" without specifics or statistics. Classic Troll-speak.

      Since an IDE is a combination of a number of things (editor,
compiler, debugger, what else) and since preferences vary so greatly,
a given user may well be able to select a better set of things that do
the job.  "better" is by his standards.  And you could do the same by
yours.

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_war>

     So which losing side are you on?  (I think all sides lose when it
gets past editor *discussion*.)

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#13838

On 4/23/2012 6:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by
> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.

Given that with mentioning any specific IDE's/editors then
an editor is a subset of an IDE, then that does not make
much sense..

Arne

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#13842

Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> Given that with mentioning any specific IDE's/editors then
> an editor is a subset of an IDE, then that does not make
> much sense..

It can only make no sense if you believe that any statement regarding how a 
particular text editor compares to the text editor made available by a 
specific IDE is something which can be expressed objectively in absolute 
terms.  It isn't.  Taste and personal preferences are, well, personal.  
These are subjective opinions, which each of us holds, that reflect nothing 
more than our personal tastes, preferences and even habits.

So, unless we believe it is a good idea to waste time discussing how a 
particular text editor is better or worse than any other text editor, 
mentioning specific text editors, and how someone uses them, is perfectly 
irrelevant, and we would only focus on that irrelevant detail if we had 
missed the point.


Rui Maciel

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#13881

On 4/24/2012 7:36 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> Given that with mentioning any specific IDE's/editors then
>> an editor is a subset of an IDE, then that does not make
>> much sense..
>
> It can only make no sense if you believe that any statement regarding how a
> particular text editor compares to the text editor made available by a
> specific IDE is something which can be expressed objectively in absolute
> terms.  It isn't.  Taste and personal preferences are, well, personal.
> These are subjective opinions, which each of us holds, that reflect nothing
> more than our personal tastes, preferences and even habits.

????

There is certainly a strong element in personal preferences for
specific tools.

But that has absolutely no relevance.

You were not talking about specific tools but about IDE's and
text editors.

And you were talking about features provided not whether
you liked them or not.

> So, unless we believe it is a good idea to waste time discussing how a
> particular text editor is better or worse than any other text editor,
> mentioning specific text editors, and how someone uses them, is perfectly
> irrelevant, and we would only focus on that irrelevant detail if we had
> missed the point.

Well - you brought up the discussion about features provide by IDE's
and editors.

And we pointed out that you were wrong because editor+tools does
not have less features than editor.

And the rest is just your hopeless pathetic attempts to avoid
admitting your fault.

Arne

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