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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #20694 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "SL@maxis" <noreply@my-rialto.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-12-25 01:04 +0800 |
| Last post | 2013-01-01 12:29 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 76 — 14 participants |
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Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "SL@maxis" <noreply@my-rialto.com> - 2012-12-25 01:04 +0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-24 12:37 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "SL@maxis" <ecp_gen@my-rialto.com> - 2012-12-25 04:32 +0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-12-26 23:20 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:05 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:07 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-27 21:13 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 11:07 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-28 09:14 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 18:18 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-12-28 00:41 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 11:14 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 17:50 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-28 21:22 +0100
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 21:08 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-28 22:55 +0100
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 18:02 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 08:55 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:40 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 20:08 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 19:33 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 17:51 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 11:37 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 11:39 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-29 22:22 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:34 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-29 08:22 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 13:00 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:54 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-30 11:02 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-30 20:33 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 19:54 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:43 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 19:06 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 19:29 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-01 01:46 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 21:35 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-01 09:22 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 19:46 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2013-01-05 08:22 +0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 19:59 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 20:01 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-05 01:32 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 10:27 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 10:29 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 16:29 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 13:46 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 18:44 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:10 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 09:04 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-06 09:53 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 18:21 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:07 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 21:18 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:28 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 21:58 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 22:04 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 22:10 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 08:34 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 08:25 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 10:34 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 16:46 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:05 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 17:10 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 14:04 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:03 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-07 07:01 -0400
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 11:11 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 14:25 +0000
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2013-01-05 08:05 +0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 11:06 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-24 23:33 +0100
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-24 18:15 -0500
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-25 10:43 +0100
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-25 13:21 -0800
Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-01 12:29 -0800
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-04 19:59 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50e77ae9$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #20960 |
On 1/4/2013 7:22 PM, Richard Maher wrote: > "Arved Sandstrom" <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message > news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >> In any case we commonly have business logic in the data tier. A subset of >> business logic is business rules, and one category of business rules is >> data constraints. And data constraints, as you know, are very often >> imposed directly in an RDBMS or managed indirectly through JPA or its .NET >> equivalents, to use just a few examples. >> >> Since we - software developers in general - routinely do the above, I see >> no reason to demonize business logic in stored procedures either. In fact, >> given the efficiency of a modern RDBMS in handling DML it is frequently >> the most sensible place to put certain kinds of business logic. > I think a perceived problem with your incredibly resonable arguments Arved > is that the primary objective in most (certainly .NET) IT depts today is to > eliminate SQL altogether and nothing to do with user/business requirements. > Your reference to their anathema of Store Procedures and Referential > Integrity to enforce business rules and logic would rule out Code-First > which is the Holy Grail of OO sites. Technology and fashion is paramount > here. Fit-for-purpose can often be a nebulous concept subject to whimsy and > subjectivity :-) In both the Java and .NET world ORM's with no SQL are popular. And in my opinion they are a very good choice in a majority of cases. But they are not a good choice in all cases. And using an ORM does not in any way preclude putting well let me call it integrity logic instead of business logic in the database - constraints, triggers and views work fine in this environment and even SP's can work in some cases. > As for vendor lockin it seems that Microsoft .NET is oft automatically > excluded from this category for some reason. True. But the price tag of that is not so bad. The biggest risk is that MS change direction. > And forget about the worry of > including business rules in different layers, I regurlary see the same > business rules and almost identical classes duplicated in project after > solution after application. Code Reuse (like the GAC) just seems to be in > the too-hard-basket. Easy-to-code seems to be the overriding requirement, > just look at ODATA :-( Trying to put all business logic in application tier certainly do not protect against all bad things. And it is a lot easier to duplicate classes between different systems than it is to duplicate the production database without being caugth. > But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer > implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules from > PHP Perl or Python access? Nobody. In that case business rules in the database is a solution to a problem. Another solution would be to go SOA and only let one service access the database and let the rest interact with that service. (I am pretty sure that the success rate for the first solution is better than for the last solution, but SOA will also improve over time) > PS. Applets are alive and well. It is alive. Well? It is far behind several alternatives in usage. Arne
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-04 20:01 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50e77b56$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #20962 |
On 1/4/2013 7:59 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/4/2013 7:22 PM, Richard Maher wrote: >> PS. Applets are alive and well. > > It is alive. > > Well? It is far behind several alternatives in usage. In theory it should have a chance for a come back give that: - JavaFX is coming as new GUI framework - MS are dropping SL - Adobe are moving slightly from Flash towards HTML5 but I doubt that any major change will happen. Arne
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-05 01:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <kc7vqt$v88$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #20962 |
On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 19:59:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > And using an ORM does not in any way preclude putting well let me call > it integrity logic instead of business logic in the database - > constraints, triggers and views work fine in this environment and even > SP's can work in some cases. > I agree with putting data integrity constraints in the DB - its hard to see what is better than that. The main issue I see, particularly if an ORM is involved, is the difficulty of getting user-understandable error messages back to the user who caused the constraint violation. Is this a serious issue or have I missed something, like the fact that all ORMs throw understandable exceptions? > And it is a lot easier to duplicate classes between different systems > than it is to duplicate the production database without being caught. > Agreed. I try to centralize error handling that but is often harder than it appears at first, especially if the errors should contain reason and localisation information. Providing the latter can easily distort the business logic. >> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >> from PHP Perl or Python access? > > Nobody. > > In that case business rules in the database is a solution to a problem. > Agreed - provided there's a clean way to get a clear description of the error back to the user. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 10:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <iJ6dneWU5fALzHTNnZ2dnUVZ7qednZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #20960 |
On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: > "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message > news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: [snip] > But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer > implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules from > PHP Perl or Python access? This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages deserves everything it gets. Keeping business logic in a single place is all about maintainability. Providing meaningful access to the most valuable asset your organization has is exactly what good design is all about. The logical extension of your argument is to do everything in the database. You're not a DBA by any chance are you ? I have no objection to using referential integrity constraints as a backup to a good understanding of your business model but I can see no situation where scattering business logic over multiple tiers/layers/whatever is anything other than poor/lazy design. Flexibility comes from providing a meaningful interface to your business state so that clients can access it using whatever means they desire be this Python or Ada or Eiffel of Haskell or any one of an apparently unending stream of 'latest greatest' languages. lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 10:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <DTfGs.28355$Id.9992@newsfe24.iad> |
| In reply to | #21018 |
On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: > On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: > > [snip] > >> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >> from >> PHP Perl or Python access? > > This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered > access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages > deserves everything it gets. Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue. > Keeping business logic in a single place is all about maintainability. How do you define "single place"? Method? Class? Package? Logical subsystem? (Gets a bit circular here). I'm not being absurdist, simply pointing out that "single place" is an unhelpful, vague description. Fact is, if you were into SOA principles, and had true small-s services, that vertical slice of inventory mgmt logic that cuts right down from workflows in the process layer right at the application boundary, through inventory mgmt business rules at the lower levels of the domain layer, right down to constraints on tables related to inventory mgmt, would be an acceptable and maintainable "single place". > Providing meaningful access to the most valuable asset your organization > has is exactly what good design is all about. > The logical extension of your argument is to do everything in the > database. You're not a DBA by any chance are you ? > > I have no objection to using referential integrity constraints as a > backup to a good understanding of your business model but I can see no > situation where scattering business logic over multiple > tiers/layers/whatever is anything other than poor/lazy design. If you use a characterization like "tiers/layers/whatever" you are not in a position to discuss the problem. > Flexibility comes from providing a meaningful interface to your business > state so that clients can access it using whatever means they desire be > this Python or Ada or Eiffel of Haskell or any one of an apparently > unending stream of 'latest greatest' languages. > > lipska > AHS
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 16:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2--dnSzM_qkbO3TNnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21030 |
On 06/01/13 14:29, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >>> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >>> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >>> from >>> PHP Perl or Python access? >> >> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >> access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages >> deserves everything it gets. > > Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of some system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from doing bad things with your business[data] I can only assume then that as far as you are concerned the only solution to any data centric business problem is to put all the business logic in the database. How else can you avoid people doing stuff with your data that you don't want them to do ? Oh, wait a minute, how about "effective management" > If you use a characterization like "tiers/layers/whatever" you are not > in a position to discuss the problem. If you say so. lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 13:46 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <HLiGs.28374$Id.27219@newsfe24.iad> |
| In reply to | #21037 |
On 01/06/2013 12:29 PM, lipska the kat wrote: > On 06/01/13 14:29, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >>> On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >>>> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >>>> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >>>> from >>>> PHP Perl or Python access? >>> >>> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >>> access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages >>> deserves everything it gets. >> >> Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue > > You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of some > system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from > doing bad things with your business[data] No, that wasn't any argument of mine. I'm not saying that putting all business _logic_ (not rules, logic - there's a clear difference, one is a subset of the other) in one layer is bad, I'm saying that it's very uncommon to find all B.L in one *tier*, and I'm also saying that anyone who purports to have a logical B.L. layer that contains all business logic may as well define that layer as being the *entire* app. I'm saying ultimately that of all the possible layer labels and characterizations, I don't find "business logic layer" to be very useful. > I can only assume then that as far as you are concerned the only > solution to any data centric business problem is to put all the business > logic in the database. No, that's actually retarded. > How else can you avoid people doing stuff with your data that you don't > want them to do ? > > Oh, wait a minute, how about "effective management" I think you're not a good reader, and I think you're inventing arguments. >> If you use a characterization like "tiers/layers/whatever" you are not >> in a position to discuss the problem. > > If you say so. > > lipska > I do say so. If you don't get that distinction what else don't you get? AHS
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 18:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <GaSdnX7tgo9qWHTNnZ2dnUVZ8i-dnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21044 |
On 06/01/13 17:46, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > On 01/06/2013 12:29 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 06/01/13 14:29, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>> On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >>>>> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >>>>> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>>>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >>>>> from >>>>> PHP Perl or Python access? >>>> >>>> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >>>> access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages >>>> deserves everything it gets. >>> >>> Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue >> >> You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of some >> system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from >> doing bad things with your business[data] > > No, that wasn't any argument of mine. but ... but ... please allow the the indulgence of quoting you "But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules from PHP Perl or Python access" I'm not sure how else to interpret this, maybe you could help me out ! >>> If you use a characterization like "tiers/layers/whatever" you are not >>> in a position to discuss the problem. Yes, English can be a tricky language can't it, it was just a bit of shorthand and was designed to indicate to you that I was aware of other threads/sub-threads in comp.lang.java.programmer that discuss the apparent meanings of words like 'tier' and 'layer' and how not having a well defined and agreed meaning for these words, can cause misunderstandings in discussions such as these. What I should have said was something like 'tier, layer or other meaningful word to describe the particular abstraction that we are currently discussing' apologies, I'll try to be more precise in future. >> >> If you say so. > I do say so. If you don't get that distinction what else don't you get? I don't get how you say one thing, then deny it then accuse me of not getting it. If you're going to get all picky about words hadn't you better get yours straight first. Still, I'm sorry we're arguing, I find some of your ideas quite informative and interesting. lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 21:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50ea2e97$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21052 |
On 1/6/2013 1:44 PM, lipska the kat wrote: > On 06/01/13 17:46, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> On 01/06/2013 12:29 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>> On 06/01/13 14:29, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>> On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>>> On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >>>>>> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>>>>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >>>>>> from >>>>>> PHP Perl or Python access? >>>>> >>>>> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >>>>> access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported languages >>>>> deserves everything it gets. >>>> >>>> Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue >>> >>> You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of some >>> system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from >>> doing bad things with your business[data] >> >> No, that wasn't any argument of mine. > > but ... but ... please allow the the indulgence of quoting you > > "But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer > implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules > from PHP Perl or Python access" You are quoting Richard Maher. > I'm not sure how else to interpret this, maybe you could help me out ! I doubt that Arved can explain what Richard meant. Arne
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-07 09:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <xcCdnYm9XO8XEnfNnZ2dnUVZ8j2dnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21113 |
On 07/01/13 02:10, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/6/2013 1:44 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 06/01/13 17:46, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> On 01/06/2013 12:29 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>> On 06/01/13 14:29, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>> On 01/06/2013 06:27 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>> On 05/01/13 00:22, Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom"<asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad... >>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> >>>>>>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>>>>>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos >>>>>>> rules >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> PHP Perl or Python access? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >>>>>> access to it's data by random clients written in unsupported >>>>>> languages >>>>>> deserves everything it gets. >>>>> >>>>> Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue >>>> >>>> You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of >>>> some >>>> system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from >>>> doing bad things with your business[data] >>> >>> No, that wasn't any argument of mine. >> >> but ... but ... please allow the the indulgence of quoting you >> >> "But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce thos rules >> from PHP Perl or Python access" > > You are quoting Richard Maher. > >> I'm not sure how else to interpret this, maybe you could help me out ! > > I doubt that Arved can explain what Richard meant. You are correct of course. I apologise to Arved. But it still doesn't make the argument any more valid. lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 09:53 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <18001bb5-8400-4cc3-9078-6effbdf1c6fc@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #21037 |
lipska the kat wrote: > Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> lipska the kat wrote: >>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: > >> > >> [snip] > >> >>>> But let's say they put all the business rules in the Business Layer >>>> implemented in a Java or C# class. Who is going to inforce [sic] thos [sic]rules >>>> from PHP Perl or Python access? That same "Business Layer [sic]", of course. >>> This is a spurious argument. Any organization that allows unfettered >>> access to it's [sic] data by random clients written in unsupported languages >>> deserves everything it gets. The programming language is immaterial. Don't know why it's mentioned here. >> Putting it another way, this is not a technical issue > > You argue that putting all the business rules in a single layer [of some > system] is bad because it does not prevent other access methods from > doing bad things with your business[data] That's not what he said. > I can only assume then that as far as you are concerned the only You can only assume it because there's no evidence for that. > solution to any data centric business problem is to put all the business > logic in the database. Put words in his mouth much? > How else can you avoid people doing stuff with your data that you don't > want them to do ? > Oh, wait a minute, how about "effective management" Oh, wait a minute, how about standard architectures, well documented, that solve this issue? >> If you use a characterization like "tiers/layers/whatever" you are not >> in a position to discuss the problem. > > If you say so. It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise language, hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide evidence that you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. Your use of the cited expression, especially the "whatever", does provide evidence that you are not. -- Lew
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 18:21 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <3L2dncjwzq4CXXTNnZ2dnUVZ7vWdnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21048 |
On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: > lipska the kat wrote: >> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: [snip] > It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise language, > hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide evidence that > you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. And here we are again. In my many years of experience working in software teams using many different languages, methodologies and processes, one thing is constant. The people who are quickest to cast aspersions on others (perceived) abilities are those who are most likely to be suffering from their own lack of self-belief. Your constant need to tell other people how unsuitable/unskilled they are is incontrovertible proof that you are one of these people. I have no issues with my abilities You add nothing to the discussion Please save your breath (and my bandwidth) lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 21:07 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50ea2dd3$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21051 |
On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: > On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >> lipska the kat wrote: >>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: > > [snip] > >> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >> language, >> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >> evidence that >> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. > > And here we are again. > > In my many years of experience working in software teams using many > different languages, methodologies and processes, Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post anonymously and claim experience? If you do, then you are wrong. It make them look rather silly. Arne
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| From | Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 21:18 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kcdb8v$hmv$1@news.mixmin.net> |
| In reply to | #21111 |
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>> language, >>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>> evidence that >>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >> >> And here we are again. >> >> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >> different languages, methodologies and processes, > > Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post > anonymously and claim experience? You mean, like you? (What's that you say? "Arne Vajhøj" is your real name? It's just as opaque an identification token to me as if you'd called yourself "Gurmax the Conqueror" or "User23125" -- you have exactly as much, or as little, reputation when I first see your newsposts. So I'd have had the same prior probability distribution regarding your techie expertise with any name you'd used. Higher than average for the wider population, because you a) use usenet and b) post routinely to a comp.* group. Elevated more when I see your posts where you seem to know a fair bit about Java. Somewhat lowered when I see you take a sometimes arrogant and overbearing tone, which may mean you're puffing yourself up some, and lowered further if you make a serious mistake or a particularly silly argument on a technical matter. Quiet, non-overweening confidence without arrogance would have the opposite effect and mistakes are made up for by accurate technical material later (as judged either against superior knowledge, official reference materials, or because when it's tested it works, with the latter being the final court of appeal for either side).) -- Hexapodia is the key insight.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 21:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50ea32c9$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21114 |
On 1/6/2013 9:18 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: > On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>>> language, >>>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>>> evidence that >>>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >>> >>> And here we are again. >>> >>> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >>> different languages, methodologies and processes, >> >> Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post >> anonymously and claim experience? > > You mean, like you? (What's that you say? "Arne Vajhøj" is your real name? > It's just as opaque an identification token to me as if you'd called > yourself "Gurmax the Conqueror" or "User23125" -- you have exactly as much, > or as little, reputation when I first see your newsposts. So I'd have had > the same prior probability distribution regarding your techie expertise > with any name you'd used. If you say so - I can not argue against you when it comes to how you think. But most people have better information seeking skills. Arne
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| From | Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 21:58 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kcddk7$kr6$1@news.mixmin.net> |
| In reply to | #21116 |
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:28:23 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/6/2013 9:18 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>>>> language, >>>>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>>>> evidence that >>>>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >>>> >>>> And here we are again. >>>> >>>> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >>>> different languages, methodologies and processes, >>> >>> Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post >>> anonymously and claim experience? >> >> You mean, like you? (What's that you say? "Arne Vajhøj" is your real name? >> It's just as opaque an identification token to me as if you'd called >> yourself "Gurmax the Conqueror" or "User23125" -- you have exactly as much, >> or as little, reputation when I first see your newsposts. So I'd have had >> the same prior probability distribution regarding your techie expertise >> with any name you'd used. > > If you say so - I can not argue against you when it comes to how > you think. > > But most people have better information seeking skills. What the hell is that supposed to mean? That there's a bunch of stuff out there findable with Google saying "Arne Vajhøj is the bee's knees"? Why should I consider that especially credible? Or presume that someone posting to some newsgroup as "Arne Vajhøj" from a public NNTP server is the same Arne Vajhøj? First of all, it could be a fake. I could post from there as "Albert Einstein" and not magically be an expert on relativity physics, but hope to fool someone into thinking I was. Secondly, maybe "Arne Vajhøj" is the "John Smith" of your country and every third person there is named that. :) So there's no need to even assume bad faith. Oh, are you still a bit sore that I insinuated that maybe you might be someone trying to ride on someone else's reputation, before saying I don't actually think so? Well, that ought to make up for your insinuating that I have poor google-fu then. -- Hexapodia is the key insight.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 22:04 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50ea3b5d$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21125 |
On 1/6/2013 9:58 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: > On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:28:23 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> On 1/6/2013 9:18 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >>> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>>> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>>>>> language, >>>>>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>>>>> evidence that >>>>>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >>>>> >>>>> And here we are again. >>>>> >>>>> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >>>>> different languages, methodologies and processes, >>>> >>>> Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post >>>> anonymously and claim experience? >>> >>> You mean, like you? (What's that you say? "Arne Vajhøj" is your real name? >>> It's just as opaque an identification token to me as if you'd called >>> yourself "Gurmax the Conqueror" or "User23125" -- you have exactly as much, >>> or as little, reputation when I first see your newsposts. So I'd have had >>> the same prior probability distribution regarding your techie expertise >>> with any name you'd used. >> >> If you say so - I can not argue against you when it comes to how >> you think. >> >> But most people have better information seeking skills. > > What the hell is that supposed to mean? > > That there's a bunch of stuff out there findable with Google saying "Arne > Vajhøj is the bee's knees"? Why should I consider that especially credible? > Or presume that someone posting to some newsgroup as "Arne Vajhøj" from a > public NNTP server is the same Arne Vajhøj? First of all, it could be a > fake. I could post from there as "Albert Einstein" and not magically be an > expert on relativity physics, but hope to fool someone into thinking I was. > Secondly, maybe "Arne Vajhøj" is the "John Smith" of your country and every > third person there is named that. :) So there's no need to even assume bad > faith. Oh, are you still a bit sore that I insinuated that maybe you might > be someone trying to ride on someone else's reputation, before saying I > don't actually think so? Well, that ought to make up for your insinuating > that I have poor google-fu then. I think you just proved that. Arne
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| From | Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-06 22:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kcdebj$lrj$1@news.mixmin.net> |
| In reply to | #21127 |
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 22:04:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/6/2013 9:58 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:28:23 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> On 1/6/2013 9:18 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >>>> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> >>>>>>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>>>>>> language, >>>>>>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>>>>>> evidence that >>>>>>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> And here we are again. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >>>>>> different languages, methodologies and processes, >>>>> >>>>> Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post >>>>> anonymously and claim experience? >>>> >>>> You mean, like you? (What's that you say? "Arne Vajhøj" is your real name? >>>> It's just as opaque an identification token to me as if you'd called >>>> yourself "Gurmax the Conqueror" or "User23125" -- you have exactly as much, >>>> or as little, reputation when I first see your newsposts. So I'd have had >>>> the same prior probability distribution regarding your techie expertise >>>> with any name you'd used. >>> >>> If you say so - I can not argue against you when it comes to how >>> you think. >>> >>> But most people have better information seeking skills. >> >> What the hell is that supposed to mean? >> >> That there's a bunch of stuff out there findable with Google saying "Arne >> Vajhøj is the bee's knees"? Why should I consider that especially credible? >> Or presume that someone posting to some newsgroup as "Arne Vajhøj" from a >> public NNTP server is the same Arne Vajhøj? First of all, it could be a >> fake. I could post from there as "Albert Einstein" and not magically be an >> expert on relativity physics, but hope to fool someone into thinking I was. >> Secondly, maybe "Arne Vajhøj" is the "John Smith" of your country and every >> third person there is named that. :) So there's no need to even assume bad >> faith. Oh, are you still a bit sore that I insinuated that maybe you might >> be someone trying to ride on someone else's reputation, before saying I >> don't actually think so? Well, that ought to make up for your insinuating >> that I have poor google-fu then. > > I think you just proved that. OK, it's obvious you have little else to offer tonight but childish name-calling. TTFN. -- Hexapodia is the key insight.
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-07 08:34 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <r5ydnYDTauMaFXfNnZ2dnUVZ8jqdnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21128 |
On 07/01/13 03:10, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: > On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 22:04:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> On 1/6/2013 9:58 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >>> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:28:23 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/6/2013 9:18 PM, Twirlip of the Mists wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:07:14 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>>>>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: [snip] > OK, it's obvious you have little else to offer tonight but childish > name-calling. That's the standard technique employed by Arne when he gets flustered I'm afraid. BTW http://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/arne.html Degree in economics ... well qualified to pass judgment on others ability in Computer Science then. lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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| From | lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-07 08:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vYOdnWyc09YaG3fNnZ2dnUVZ8oKdnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #21111 |
On 07/01/13 02:07, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/6/2013 1:21 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 06/01/13 17:53, Lew wrote: >>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>> lipska the kat wrote: >>>>>> Richard Maher wrote: >>>>>>> "Arved Sandstrom" wrote >>>>>>>> On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >>> It's a conclusion based on the stated evidence. Your use of imprecise >>> language, >>> hand-waving and misstatement of others' points does not provide >>> evidence that >>> you are in a position, or possess the knowledge, to discuss the problem. >> >> And here we are again. >> >> In my many years of experience working in software teams using many >> different languages, methodologies and processes, > > Do you think anyone is impressed by posters that post > anonymously and claim experience? > > If you do, then you are wrong. It make them look > rather silly. I couldn't care less what you think. Or maybe you think this is comp.lang.arni.programmer lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
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