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Regarding banking software

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  Regarding banking software Navnath Gadakh <navnathgadakh@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 21:25 -0700
    Re: Regarding banking software Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-10-01 10:26 -0700
      Re: Regarding banking software Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-10-01 19:43 -0400
    Re: Regarding banking software bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-01 13:10 -0700
      Re: Regarding banking software Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-10-01 13:59 -0700
        Re: Regarding banking software Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-10-01 19:46 -0400
      Re: Regarding banking software Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-10-01 19:44 -0400
        Re: Regarding banking software bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-02 07:18 -0700
          Re: Regarding banking software Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-10-02 09:19 -0700
            Re: Regarding banking software bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-02 11:59 -0700
              Re: Regarding banking software Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-10-02 12:04 -0700
                Re: Regarding banking software bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-02 13:00 -0700
                  Re: Regarding banking software Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-10-02 13:34 -0700
                    Re: Regarding banking software bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-10-02 14:22 -0700
                      Re: Regarding banking software Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-10-02 14:40 -0700
                    Re: Regarding banking software glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-10-02 22:44 +0000
                    Re: Regarding banking software Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-10-02 15:52 -0700
                  Re: Regarding banking software Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-10-02 14:55 -0700
              Re: Regarding banking software David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-10-02 21:48 -0400
    Re: Regarding banking software Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-10-01 19:40 -0400
    Re: Regarding banking software David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-10-01 22:41 -0400
    Re: Regarding banking software Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-10-02 03:25 -0400

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#19006 — Regarding banking software

 i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?

Thanks in adv

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#19017

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Navnath Gadakh
<navnathgadakh@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

> i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?

Much banking software are batch processes.  The only auxiliary tool
you would need in as database .  See
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/sql.html

For clerks to make transactions, you might use Java programs for data
entry then send data to a server. 

For customer online banking you would likely use a browser sending CGI
transactions to a servlet womb.  See
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/servletwomb.html

Since banking software tends to have a very long life it is important
to base your code only on tools likely to have a long life and to have
plug-in replacements.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The iPhone 5 is a low end Rolex. 

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#19025

On 10/1/2012 1:26 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Navnath Gadakh
> <navnathgadakh@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
> who said :
>> i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?
>
> Much banking software are batch processes.  The only auxiliary tool
> you would need in as database .  See
> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/sql.html

I would expect a bank application to use dozens if not hundreds of
tools and frameworks.

> For clerks to make transactions, you might use Java programs for data
> entry then send data to a server.
>
> For customer online banking you would likely use a browser sending CGI
> transactions to a servlet womb.

The CGI spec does not contain anything about transactions.

And I am not aware of any servlet container that can be
run via CGI (for good reasons - the startup time would
kill performance).

Arne

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#19018

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:25:35 PM UTC-5, Navnath Gadakh wrote:
> i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in adv

It sounds like you will want to use Swing with a MySQL backend.

Also, be careful with float and double rounding errors.

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#19021

bob smith wrote:
> Navnath Gadakh wrote:
>> i [sic] am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what
>> framework or shall i use plan java [sic] plz help?

Don't pick a framework or even a language until you know at least in some detail what your 
system will do.

> It sounds like you will want to use Swing with a MySQL backend.

Based on what?

That is an insane answer.

If it's a Web application then Swing could be the wrong choice.

MySQL is likely the wrong choice.

Would you use Swing to calculate the interest on a credit card? (Trick question.)

Navnath - pay no attention to anyone who recommends a particular package or 
software framework at this stage. It's not even clear that Java is the right choice.

> Also, be careful with float and double rounding errors.

There should be no use of 'float' in financial calculations. I have heard people
defend the use of 'double' for certain use cases, but I am dubious of that 
reasoning. I would avoid 'double'.

Obviously this doesn't apply to screen coordinates in your Swing classes. 

Of which there may be none.

"Banking software" is a large topic and a huge universe of functionality, most of 
which is out of reach of the typical one-person shop. What is your intent? What 
scope? Who's the audience for your product?

-- 
Lew

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#19027

On 10/1/2012 4:59 PM, Lew wrote:
> bob smith wrote:
>> Navnath Gadakh wrote:
>>> i [sic] am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what
>>> framework or shall i use plan java [sic] plz help?

>> It sounds like you will want to use Swing with a MySQL backend.
>
> Based on what?
>
> That is an insane answer.

It is one out of a large number of possible combinations.

No reason to pick that but then no reason to not pick it either.

> If it's a Web application then Swing could be the wrong choice.
>
> MySQL is likely the wrong choice.

Why?

There are companies that run billion dollar businesses on MySQL.

>> Also, be careful with float and double rounding errors.
>
> There should be no use of 'float' in financial calculations. I have heard people
> defend the use of 'double' for certain use cases, but I am dubious of that
> reasoning. I would avoid 'double'.

I completely agree.

Arne

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#19026

On 10/1/2012 4:10 PM, bob smith wrote:
> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:25:35 PM UTC-5, Navnath Gadakh wrote:
>> i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?
>
> It sounds like you will want to use Swing with a MySQL backend.

It is one UI and one database, but there are plenty of alternatives.

> Also, be careful with float and double rounding errors.

Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!

Arne

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#19036

On Monday, October 1, 2012 6:44:33 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 4:10 PM, bob smith wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:25:35 PM UTC-5, Navnath Gadakh wrote:
> 
> >> i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?
> 
> >
> 
> > It sounds like you will want to use Swing with a MySQL backend.
> 
> 
> 
> It is one UI and one database, but there are plenty of alternatives.
> 
> 
> 
> > Also, be careful with float and double rounding errors.
> 
> 
> 
> Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!

And how will you be calculating interest ?


> 
> 
> 
> Arne

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#19040

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:

> [...]
>> Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!
> 
> And how will you be calculating interest ?

With a proper decimal numeric format.  E.g. BigDecimal.  These exist
precisely because of this specific issue.

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#19042

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:20:03 AM UTC-5, Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > [...]
> 
> >> Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!
> 
> > 
> 
> > And how will you be calculating interest ?
> 
> 
> 
> With a proper decimal numeric format.  E.g. BigDecimal.  These exist
> 
> precisely because of this specific issue.

Don't you need to be able to raise to a floating point power for interest?  (i.e. not an integer)

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#19044

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 11:59:01 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:20:03 AM UTC-5, Peter Duniho wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> [...]
>> 
>>>> Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!
>> 
>>> And how will you be calculating interest ?
>> 
>> With a proper decimal numeric format.  E.g. BigDecimal.  These exist
>> 
>> precisely because of this specific issue.
> 
> Don't you need to be able to raise to a floating point power for interest?  (i.e. not an integer)

For example?

All my banks simply compute simple interest periodically, compounding as
necessary.  It's straight multiplication, no exponents necessary.

When is a "floating point power" needed?  And if it's needed, what is to
preclude one from writing a proper decimal implementation rather than
improperly using float or double for financial computations?

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#19050

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:05:00 PM UTC-5, Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 11:59:01 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:20:03 AM UTC-5, Peter Duniho wrote:
> 
> >> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >>> [...]
> 
> >> 
> 
> >>>> Better just avoid float and double completely when dealing with money!
> 
> >> 
> 
> >>> And how will you be calculating interest ?
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> With a proper decimal numeric format.  E.g. BigDecimal.  These exist
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> precisely because of this specific issue.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Don't you need to be able to raise to a floating point power for interest?  (i.e. not an integer)
> 
> 
> 
> For example?
> 
> 
> 
> All my banks simply compute simple interest periodically, compounding as
> 
> necessary.  It's straight multiplication, no exponents necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> When is a "floating point power" needed?  And if it's needed, what is to
> 
> preclude one from writing a proper decimal implementation rather than
> 
> improperly using float or double for financial computations?

If you are just compounding daily, then maybe you don't need it.

However, it you want to compound continuously, I think you will need it.  (   To use P*e^(r*t)    )

And, good luck representing e with your BigDecimal class.

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#19057

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:

> [...]
> However, it you want to compound continuously, I think you will need it.  (   To use P*e^(r*t)    )

Define "continuously".  Do you mean as in computing an integral?  What
financial institution needs to do that?  For what computation?  Please
provide an actual example.

If you simply mean more than one period of compounding, then the finite
nature of these computations means that it is sufficient to simply iterate
as needed.

> And, good luck representing e with your BigDecimal class.

Fortunately, e is not a commonly used constant in financial computations.

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#19059

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 3:34:19 PM UTC-5, Peter Duniho wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > [...]
> 
> > However, it you want to compound continuously, I think you will need it.  (   To use P*e^(r*t)    )
> 
> 
> 
> Define "continuously".  Do you mean as in computing an integral?  What
> 
> financial institution needs to do that?  For what computation?  Please
> 
> provide an actual example.
> 
> 
> 
> If you simply mean more than one period of compounding, then the finite
> 
> nature of these computations means that it is sufficient to simply iterate
> 
> as needed.
> 
> 
> 
> > And, good luck representing e with your BigDecimal class.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, e is not a commonly used constant in financial computations.

I'm talking about this:

http://www.mathwords.com/c/continuously_compounded_interest.htm

I don't know if anyone uses it in real life except for math class.

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#19062

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:

> I'm talking about this:
> 
> http://www.mathwords.com/c/continuously_compounded_interest.htm
> 
> I don't know if anyone uses it in real life except for math class.

If you don't know, then why are you so concerned about its application in
real-world financial computations?

And by the way, I would argue that in that particular case, since the
computation does in fact involve an irrational number, then by definition
if you want to use that formula in digital computations, you don't care
about rounding error.  The literal "e" starts out with rounding error in
that context.

Even so, you could just as easily implement such a computation using a
decimal format as a binary format.  Just because BigDecimal itself doesn't
support it directly, that doesn't mean it can't be done.

In any case, the fact remains that for the real-world, where interest is
not in fact computed continuously, decimal numeric representations
(including BigDecimal) are considered superior to binary floating point,
and for good reason.  The question you asked, "how will you be calculating
interest?", just makes no sense.  One would calculate interest in the usual
way, with multiplication.

Pete

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#19064

Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT), bob smith wrote:

>> [...]
>> However, it you want to compound continuously, I think you will need it.  (   To use P*e^(r*t)    )

> Define "continuously".  Do you mean as in computing an integral?  What
> financial institution needs to do that?  For what computation?  Please
> provide an actual example.

Story in my high-school calculus class 30 something years ago was
that there was a time when banks were competing on compounding.

I do remember some advertizing as compounding daily. In that
climate, one bank decided to offer compounding continuously.
(Maybe after another offered compounding minutely or secondly.)
The difference gets ever smaller very fast, though.

Maybe about the same time, there was competition between blender
companies on how many speeds they had. Six, eight, or more.
Then one company put a knob on for an infinite number of speeds,
but no-one would buy them. 

Maybe the same thing happened to banks and interest.

-- glen

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#19065

Peter Duniho wrote:
> bob smith wrote:
>> [...]
>> However, it you want to compound continuously, I think you will need it.  (   To use P*e^(r*t)    )
> 
> Define "continuously".  Do you mean as in computing an integral?  What
> financial institution needs to do that?  For what computation?  Please
> provide an actual example.
> 
> If you simply mean more than one period of compounding, then the finite
> nature of these computations means that it is sufficient to simply iterate
> as needed.
> 
>> And, good luck representing e with your BigDecimal class.

static final BigDecimal EULERS = new BigDecimal(Math.E);

What's the big deal? Of course, it's no more accurate than the 'double' representation.

> Fortunately, e is not a commonly used constant in financial computations.

-- 
Lew

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#19063

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT), bob smith
<bob@coolfone.comze.com> wrote:

[snip]

>And, good luck representing e with your BigDecimal class.

     Good luck representing e with floating point.

     I know that either way, one will have an approximation.  Do you?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#19068

On 02/10/2012 2:59 PM, bob smith wrote:
> Don't you need to be able to raise to a floating point power for interest?  (i.e. not an integer)

Only for things like present value, which is for financial planning 
rather than managing one's money directly. There are Rules (with a 
capital R) for how many digits to keep for simple interest calculations; 
compounding happens naturally as they add the interest to the principal 
(no exponentiation involved).

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#19024

On 10/1/2012 12:25 AM, Navnath Gadakh wrote:
>   i am new to java and i want to develop one banking software in how start and what framework or shall i use plan java plz help?

For a toy bank application: learn a lot about Java and then start.
The topic is far too big to cover in a usenet post.

For a real bank application: contact a lot of VC companies to get
funding to hire 500 developers.

Arne

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