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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #9560 > unrolled thread

Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing

Started byJan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm>
First post2011-11-05 04:03 +0100
Last post2011-11-07 08:46 -0800
Articles 17 on this page of 97 — 19 participants

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Contents

  Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 04:03 +0100
    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 12:42 +0100
      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-05 09:35 -0700
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 19:33 +0100
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 14:42 -0400
            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 19:52 +0100
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-05 19:32 +0000
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 15:31 -0400
                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 20:50 +0100
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 16:26 -0400
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 21:35 +0100
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 21:38 +0100
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 16:59 -0400
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 22:06 +0100
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 16:41 -0400
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 21:42 +0100
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 17:11 -0400
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 16:20 -0400
                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 21:33 +0100
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 16:38 -0400
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 21:41 +0100
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-05 17:20 -0700
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-05 22:13 -0300
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-05 20:05 -0700
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 10:27 +0100
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 10:14 +0100
      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-05 10:06 -0700
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-11-05 10:55 -0700
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 19:30 +0100
            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-11-05 18:16 -0400
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 23:20 +0100
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 23:38 +0100
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-05 17:47 -0300
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-11-05 14:26 -0700
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 16:14 -0400
    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-11-05 14:35 -0700
      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 22:42 +0100
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 22:50 +0100
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-11-05 14:51 -0700
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 22:58 +0100
            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 23:03 +0100
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-05 23:07 +0100
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-11-06 09:44 +0200
                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 10:22 +0100
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-06 09:05 -0400
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 14:16 +0100
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-06 14:30 +0000
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 16:02 +0100
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 16:08 +0100
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-06 16:18 +0100
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 16:54 +0100
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-06 17:31 +0100
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 22:33 +0100
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-06 16:58 +0100
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-07 01:01 +0000
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 17:26 -0800
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-07 23:45 +0000
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 14:44 -0800
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 17:51 -0500
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 01:28 +0100
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 19:50 -0500
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 02:13 +0100
                                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 20:20 -0500
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 17:29 -0800
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 11:22 +0100
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-06 23:02 +0000
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 00:32 +0100
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 01:10 +0100
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-07 10:24 +0000
                                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 11:52 +0100
                                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-07 11:12 +0000
                                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-07 17:24 -0500
                            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Giovanni Azua <bravegag@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-07 02:08 +0100
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 05:03 +0100
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 05:13 +0100
                              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-07 23:38 +0000
                                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-09 22:06 +0000
                                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-09 18:02 -0800
    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 00:28 +0100
      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 00:39 +0100
        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-06 20:57 -0400
          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-11-07 04:58 +0100
            Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Silvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-11-07 15:13 +0100
              Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> - 2011-11-07 12:54 -0500
                Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing "B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-11-07 18:07 -0500
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-11-07 22:07 -0500
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing "B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-11-08 00:17 -0500
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-11-08 16:03 -0500
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> - 2011-11-08 15:49 -0500
                    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing "B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-11-08 18:01 -0500
                      Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-11-08 20:46 -0500
                        Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing "Cthun" <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> - 2011-11-08 22:43 -0500
                          Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-11-09 08:28 -0500
                  Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-11-08 16:00 -0500
    Re: Immutable Datastructures with good Sharing Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-07 08:46 -0800

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#9700

FromJan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Date2011-11-07 00:28 +0100
Message-ID<j9756g$t80$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#9560
Jan Burse schrieb:
> Dear All,
>
> Value objects are some well known immutable
> datastructures, when an operation is applied,
> typically simply a new object is created. So
> for example doing:
>
> 3 = 1 + 2
>
> With java.lang.Integer objects would involve
> creating a new Integer with value left.intValue()
> + right.intValue().
>
> But instead of call the constructor, one can also call
> Integer.valueOf(), and there you have some sharing.
> Namely the class Integer caches the value objects for
> small values (at least the last time I looked into
> the Oracle source, it was there...).
>
> More elaborate sharing is seen in the String class
> by the substring() operation. This operation does
> reuse the original character array and only encapsulates
> the offset and the length in a new object. I wouldnt
> recomende that to get one character from a 1 MB
> long string, since it will prevent the original
> character array from GC. But in some situation this
> is quite handy.
>
> I am now looking for immutable datastructures with
> a similar sharing. In the String class example, the
> operation was substring() that produced a new immutable
> object. I am looking for:
>
> Some stack class, where: (Easy)
> pop() creates a new immutable stack
> push() creates a new immutable stack
> With good sharing.
>
> Some queue class, where: (Hard?)
> enqueue() creates a new immutable queue
> dequeue() creates a new immutable queue
> With good sharing.
>
> What is your favorite datastructure?
>
> Bye

Here is some explanation how an immutable set would work,
based on some tree where cloning is only performed along
the insert or delete path:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3233473/immutable-data-structures-performance

Could I derive a queue from this?

Bye

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#9702

FromJan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Date2011-11-07 00:39 +0100
Message-ID<j975rn$ujh$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#9700
Jan Burse schrieb:
> Here is some explanation how an immutable set would work,
> based on some tree where cloning is only performed along
> the insert or delete path:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3233473/immutable-data-structures-performance
>
>
> Could I derive a queue from this?
>
> Bye
>

Ah, this is already better. Immutable Vectors with Sharing!
(Seems that another terminology for Immutable+Sharing is
persistent, but I would get a conflict with DB terminology)

http://www.codecommit.com/blog/scala/more-persistent-vectors-performance-analysis

I guess I will manage to go from a Vector to a Queue.

Bye

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#9711

FromArved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca>
Date2011-11-06 20:57 -0400
Message-ID<t1Gtq.16960$SW4.7574@newsfe08.iad>
In reply to#9702
On 11-11-06 07:39 PM, Jan Burse wrote:
> Jan Burse schrieb:
>> Here is some explanation how an immutable set would work,
>> based on some tree where cloning is only performed along
>> the insert or delete path:
>>
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3233473/immutable-data-structures-performance
>>
>>
>>
>> Could I derive a queue from this?
>>
>> Bye
>>
> 
> Ah, this is already better. Immutable Vectors with Sharing!
> (Seems that another terminology for Immutable+Sharing is
> persistent, but I would get a conflict with DB terminology)

Well, a few of us have already mentioned "persistence" in this thread,
meaning persistence in the data structure sense. The definition features
right at the beginning of one of Okasaki's main initial sections.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I find it disconcerting when a poster
with questions confesses that they're not reading a bunch of the
answers. And how could you possibly have gotten an impression of
Okasaki's work if you missed this particular definition?

Just sayin'.

And, no, "persistence" != Immutable + Sharing.

[ SNIP ]

AHS

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#9724

FromJan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Date2011-11-07 04:58 +0100
Message-ID<j97l1n$jr7$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#9711
Arved Sandstrom schrieb:
> answers. And how could you possibly have gotten an impression of
> Okasaki's work if you missed this particular definition?
>
> Just sayin'.
>
> And, no, "persistence" != Immutable + Sharing.

I missed it, what is persistence?

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#9740

FromSilvio Bierman <silvio@moc.com>
Date2011-11-07 15:13 +0100
Message-ID<4eb7e76f$0$6972$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#9724
On 11/07/2011 04:58 AM, Jan Burse wrote:
> Arved Sandstrom schrieb:
>> answers. And how could you possibly have gotten an impression of
>> Okasaki's work if you missed this particular definition?
>>
>> Just sayin'.
>>
>> And, no, "persistence" != Immutable + Sharing.
>
> I missed it, what is persistence?

Basically a persistent data structure is one that somehow retains its 
previous value upon a modification.

Although not necessarily so this is usually realized in the form of a 
data structure that implements modifications solely as operations that 
return the modified version leaving the current version unchanged, 
effectively resulting in an immutable data structure. For this to 
perform well, both space and time wise, sharing is often necessary.

A singly linked list is probably the simplest example. As long as 
existing nodes in the list are never modified (both its value as its 
link to the next element) additions can only be done at the head of the 
list and common tails can always be shared.

Perhaps looking into the standard libraries of Scala or Clojure would be 
a good idea. Both provide immutable lists, trees, vectors, hashmaps etc.

Silvio

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#9749

FromCthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au>
Date2011-11-07 12:54 -0500
Message-ID<j9961f$nc2$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9740
On 07/11/2011 9:13 AM, Silvio Bierman wrote:
> Perhaps looking into the standard libraries of Scala or Clojure would be
> a good idea. Both provide immutable lists, trees, vectors, hashmaps etc.

Clojure's can be used from in Java by importing clojure.lang classes and 
having the Clojure jar in the classpath. No generics, but they implement 
the unmodifiable-foo portions of the Map, Set, List, etc. interfaces 
from java.util and have their own return-a-modified-version methods. 
There's a persistent immutable stack class included.

I'm not sure if clojure.lang has a persistent immutable queue, or if it 
does if it's a deque, but someone posted code for a queue on their 
mailing list a year or so ago. I'm not sure who or exactly when, but a 
search for "persistent queue" will probably turn it up. I think it was a 
full deque with pushes, peeks, and pops at both ends stated to be O(1). 
It used deftype/defprotocol which, if I understand them correctly, 
generates named Java classes and interfaces that can be imported into 
and used from Java if the Clojure code is AOT-compiled to generate 
.class files. I don't know what, if any, license the author specified 
though.

I also recall seeing a priority queue implementation posted there at 
some point.

Of course, you might want to take the larger step of actually using 
Clojure if persistence and immutability are things you crave. ;)

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#9755

From"B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m>
Date2011-11-07 18:07 -0500
Message-ID<j9961f$nd2$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9749
On 07/11/2011 12:54 PM, Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> wrote:
>On 07/11/2011 9:13 AM, Silvio Bierman wrote:
>> Perhaps looking into the standard libraries of Scala or Clojure would be
>> a good idea. Both provide immutable lists, trees, vectors, hashmaps etc.
>
>There's a persistent immutable stack class included.
>
Yes - identify the lines, genius.
>I'm not sure 
>
Yes - it's very clear.
>I also recall 
>
No - it's not.
>
>Of course, 
No - it's not.

-- 
A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01)
00010E36. The current application will be terminated.

* Press any key to terminate the current application.

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#9767

FromB1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m>
Date2011-11-07 22:07 -0500
Message-ID<j9a6e8$6e6$2@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9755
On 07/11/2011 6:07 PM, someone pretending to be me wrote:
> Yes - it's very clear.
> No - it's not.
> No - it's not.

Hey, coward, mind posting using your own name or whatever handle you're 
usually known as instead of using mine?

-- 
A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01)
00010E36. The current application will be terminated.

* Press any key to terminate the current application.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9774

From"B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m>
Date2011-11-08 00:17 -0500
Message-ID<j9a6e8$6e3$2@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9767
From a idiot.extreme-one came the gem:
>On 07/11/2011 6:07 PM, someone pretending to be me wrote:
>> Yes - it's very clear.
>> No - it's not.
>> No - it's not.
>
>Hey, coward, mind posting using your own name or whatever handle you're 
>usually known as instead of using mine?

--------------forgery alert... play nice, leave off with the multiple name use in CLJP
Report sent - X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org

-- 
A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01)
00010E36. The current application will be terminated.

* Press any key to terminate the current application.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9787

Fromthoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium>
Date2011-11-08 16:03 -0500
Message-ID<j9c5ed$45h$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9774
On 08/11/2011 12:17 AM, murphy wrote:
NaN> From a idiot.extreme-one came the gem:

Who is "a idiot.extreme-one", murphy? There is nobody in this newsgroup 
using that alias.

NaN> --------------forgery alert...

What does your forgery have to do with Java, murphy? Forgeries are more 
effective if you don't alert everyone to the fact of your forgery, murphy.

NaN> play nice, leave off with the multiple name use in CLJP

What does your ironic directive to B1ll Gat3s have to do with Java, murphy?

NaN> Report sent - X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org

How ironic.

    "I had 'volunteered (years back) to support those who do endeavor
     to provide free Free Usenet access, support those who offered
     subscription based Free Usenet access, nothing more than
     cooperation expected in return for what has been many
     thousands of hours of work. I note most of those I joined with
     are either deceased, severely disabled, or plain ole' MIA..
     now it is my Time. ...

     You just read my last. ...

     For those who think they see me in future times I can only wish
     you severe Tinnitus in your dreams. For those who know me
     well (eMail, whatever) and see me, know I will be smiling also.
     It is to you I say "adieu mein frenz and adios .. grazie' [hugs]
     for all the Good Times! May you and yours always bear well
     with all Life brings you".

     /0ut"
       --murphy

http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/goodbye.htm

And some people wonder why I call them Famous Last Words.

P.S. You forgot to include a copy of your trademarked Lits o' Haet, 
murphy. Still suffering from memory problems, murphy?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9784

FromCthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au>
Date2011-11-08 15:49 -0500
Message-ID<j9c4jt$1rk$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9755
On 07/11/2011 6:07 PM, B1ll Gat3s wrote:
> On 07/11/2011 12:54 PM, Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> wrote:
>> On 07/11/2011 9:13 AM, Silvio Bierman wrote:
>>> Perhaps looking into the standard libraries of Scala or Clojure would be
>>> a good idea. Both provide immutable lists, trees, vectors, hashmaps etc.
>>
>> There's a persistent immutable stack class included.
>
> Yes - identify the lines, genius.

?

Download it yourself or browse the source file at github if for some 
reason you want to know what line numbers of what file contain the stack 
class.

>> I'm not sure
> Yes - it's very clear.

??

>> I also recall
> No - it's not.

???

>> Of course,
> No - it's not.

????

Are you on crack?

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#9790

From"B1ll Gat3s" <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m>
Date2011-11-08 18:01 -0500
Message-ID<j9ccio$mqm$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9784
From Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> classic idiot.extreme-one came the gem:
>
>Download it yourself or browse the source file at github if for some 
>reason you want to know what line numbers of what file contain the stack 
>class.
>
classic fooktard presupposition

>>> I'm not sure
>> Yes - it's very clear.
>
>??
>
is Derbyshireite for ?

>>> I also recall
>> No - it's not.
>
>???
>
is Derbyshireite for ?

>>> Of course,
>> No - it's not.
>
>????
>
is Derbyshireite for ?

>Are you on crack?
>
your obsession with owning the crackpot th00len
identity is related to Java how, Paul?

How cute to see you two fooktards...tied at the 
ankle...bouncing into CJLP in perfect unison.
Murphy would be most amused.
Onto a technical issue, why is cthun_202@qmail.net.au
not being recognized?

-- 
A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01)
00010E36. The current application will be terminated.

* Press any key to terminate the current application.

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#9791

Fromthoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium>
Date2011-11-08 20:46 -0500
Message-ID<j9cm2j$b9m$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9790
On 08/11/2011 6:01 PM, murphy wrote:
NaN> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer

NaN> From Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> classic idiot.extreme-one came the
NaN> gem:

What does your unsubstantiated allegation regarding Cthun's IQ have to 
do with Java, murphy?

NaN> classic fooktard presupposition

What does your fooktard presupposition have to do with Java, murphy?

NaN> is Derbyshireite for ?

What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?

NaN> is Derbyshireite for ?

What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?

NaN> is Derbyshireite for ?

What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?

NaN> your obsession with owning the crackpot th00len
NaN> identity is related to Java how, Paul?

Who is "Paul", murphy? There is nobody in this newsgroup using that alias.

NaN> How cute to see you two fooktards...tied at the ankle...bouncing into
NaN> CJLP in perfect unison.

What does your classic erroneous presupposition have to do with Java, 
murphy?

NaN> Murphy would be most amused.

What does your amusement have to do with Java, murphy?

NaN> Onto a technical issue, why is cthun_202@qmail.net.au
NaN> not being recognized?

What does your ambiguous question of Cthun have to do with Java, murphy?

    "I had 'volunteered (years back) to support those who do endeavor
     to provide free Free Usenet access, support those who offered
     subscription based Free Usenet access, nothing more than
     cooperation expected in return for what has been many
     thousands of hours of work. I note most of those I joined with
     are either deceased, severely disabled, or plain ole' MIA..
     now it is my Time. ...

     You just read my last. ...

     For those who think they see me in future times I can only wish
     you severe Tinnitus in your dreams. For those who know me
     well (eMail, whatever) and see me, know I will be smiling also.
     It is to you I say "adieu mein frenz and adios .. grazie' [hugs]
     for all the Good Times! May you and yours always bear well
     with all Life brings you".

     /0ut"
       --murphy

http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/goodbye.htm

And some people wonder why I call them Famous Last Words.

P.S. You forgot to include a copy of your trademarked Lits o' Haet, 
murphy. Still suffering from memory problems, murphy?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9794

From"Cthun" <cthun_202@qmail.net.au>
Date2011-11-08 22:43 -0500
Message-ID<j9css9$pb3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9791
On 08/11/2011 8:46 PM, thoolen wrote: 
>On 08/11/2011 6:01 PM, murphy wrote:
>NaN> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer
>NaN> From Cthun <cthun_202@qmail.net.au> classic idiot.extreme-one came the
>NaN> gem:
>
>What does your unsubstantiated allegation regarding Cthun's IQ have to 
>do with Java, murphy?
>
No, no, a thousand times no! None of the nasty things that you have
said or implied about me are at all true.

Are you on crack?

(noop)NaN>classic fooktard presupposition
(noop)
(noop)What does your fooktard presupposition have to do with Java, murphy?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>is Derbyshireite for ?
(noop)
(noop)What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>is Derbyshireite for ?
(noop)
(noop)What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>is Derbyshireite for ?
(noop)
(noop)What it "Derbyshireite", murphy, and what does it have to do with Java?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>your obsession with owning the crackpot th00len
(noop)NaN>identity is related to Java how, Paul?
(noop)
(noop)Who is "Paul", murphy? There is nobody in this newsgroup using that alias.
(noop)
(noop)NaN>How cute to see you two fooktards...tied at the ankle...bouncing into
(noop)NaN>CJLP in perfect unison.
(noop)
(noop)What does your classic erroneous presupposition have to do with Java, 
(noop)murphy?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>Murphy would be most amused.
(noop)
(noop)What does your amusement have to do with Java, murphy?
(noop)
(noop)NaN>Onto a technical issue, why is cthun_202@qmail.net.au
(noop)NaN>not being recognized?
(noop)
(noop)What does your ambiguous question of Cthun have to do with Java, murphy?
(noop)
(noop)    "I had 'volunteered (years back) to support those who do endeavor
(noop)     to provide free Free Usenet access, support those who offered
(noop)     subscription based Free Usenet access, nothing more than
(noop)     cooperation expected in return for what has been many
(noop)     thousands of hours of work. I note most of those I joined with
(noop)     are either deceased, severely disabled, or plain ole' MIA..
(noop)     now it is my Time. ...
(noop)
(noop)     You just read my last. ...
(noop)
(noop)     For those who think they see me in future times I can only wish
(noop)     you severe Tinnitus in your dreams. For those who know me
(noop)     well (eMail, whatever) and see me, know I will be smiling also.
(noop)     It is to you I say "adieu mein frenz and adios .. grazie' [hugs]
(noop)     for all the Good Times! May you and yours always bear well
(noop)     with all Life brings you".
(noop)
(noop)     /0ut"
(noop)       --murphy
(noop)
(noop)http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/goodbye.htm
(noop)
(noop)And some people wonder why I call them Famous Last Words.
(noop)
(noop)P.S. You forgot to include a copy of your trademarked Lits o' Haet, 
(noop)murphy. Still suffering from memory problems, murphy?

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#9796

Fromthoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium>
Date2011-11-09 08:28 -0500
Message-ID<j9dv5f$bdk$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9794
On 08/11/2011 10:43 PM, murphy wrote:
NaN> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer

NaN> No, no, a thousand times no!

What does your denial have to do with Java, murphy?

NaN> None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
NaN> are at all true.

What does your classic erroneous presupposition have to do with Java, 
murphy?

NaN> Are you on crack?

What does your ridiculous question have to do with Java, murphy?

    "I had 'volunteered (years back) to support those who do endeavor
     to provide free Free Usenet access, support those who offered
     subscription based Free Usenet access, nothing more than
     cooperation expected in return for what has been many
     thousands of hours of work. I note most of those I joined with
     are either deceased, severely disabled, or plain ole' MIA..
     now it is my Time. ...

     You just read my last. ...

     For those who think they see me in future times I can only wish
     you severe Tinnitus in your dreams. For those who know me
     well (eMail, whatever) and see me, know I will be smiling also.
     It is to you I say "adieu mein frenz and adios .. grazie' [hugs]
     for all the Good Times! May you and yours always bear well
     with all Life brings you".

     /0ut"
       --murphy

http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/goodbye.htm

And some people wonder why I call them Famous Last Words.

P.S. You forgot to include a copy of your trademarked Lits o' Haet, 
murphy. Still suffering from memory problems, murphy?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9786

Fromthoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium>
Date2011-11-08 16:00 -0500
Message-ID<j9c58n$3re$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#9755
On 07/11/2011 6:07 PM, murphy wrote:
NaN> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer

NaN> Yes - identify the lines, genius.

What does your directive to Cthun have to do with Java, murphy?

NaN> Yes - it's very clear.

Classic ambiguity.

NaN> No - it's not.

Non sequitur.

NaN> No - it's not.

Non sequitur.

    "I had 'volunteered (years back) to support those who do endeavor
     to provide free Free Usenet access, support those who offered
     subscription based Free Usenet access, nothing more than
     cooperation expected in return for what has been many
     thousands of hours of work. I note most of those I joined with
     are either deceased, severely disabled, or plain ole' MIA..
     now it is my Time. ...

     You just read my last. ...

     For those who think they see me in future times I can only wish
     you severe Tinnitus in your dreams. For those who know me
     well (eMail, whatever) and see me, know I will be smiling also.
     It is to you I say "adieu mein frenz and adios .. grazie' [hugs]
     for all the Good Times! May you and yours always bear well
     with all Life brings you".

     /0ut"
       --murphy

http://www.uffnet.com/kookkamp/goodbye.htm

And some people wonder why I call them Famous Last Words.

P.S. You forgot to include a copy of your trademarked Lits o' Haet, 
murphy. Still suffering from memory problems, murphy?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#9744

FromDaniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net>
Date2011-11-07 08:46 -0800
Message-ID<UXTtq.21434$Pm3.19955@newsfe12.iad>
In reply to#9560
On 11/4/11 8:03 PM, Jan Burse wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Value objects are some well known immutable
> datastructures, when an operation is applied,
> typically simply a new object is created. So
> for example doing:
>
> 3 = 1 + 2
>
> With java.lang.Integer objects would involve
> creating a new Integer with value left.intValue()
> + right.intValue().
>
> But instead of call the constructor, one can also call
> Integer.valueOf(), and there you have some sharing.
> Namely the class Integer caches the value objects for
> small values (at least the last time I looked into
> the Oracle source, it was there...).
>
> More elaborate sharing is seen in the String class
> by the substring() operation. This operation does
> reuse the original character array and only encapsulates
> the offset and the length in a new object. I wouldnt
> recomende that to get one character from a 1 MB
> long string, since it will prevent the original
> character array from GC. But in some situation this
> is quite handy.
>
> I am now looking for immutable datastructures with
> a similar sharing. In the String class example, the
> operation was substring() that produced a new immutable
> object. I am looking for:
>
> Some stack class, where: (Easy)
> pop() creates a new immutable stack
> push() creates a new immutable stack
> With good sharing.
>
> Some queue class, where: (Hard?)
> enqueue() creates a new immutable queue
> dequeue() creates a new immutable queue
> With good sharing.
>
> What is your favorite datastructure?
>
> Bye

Linked list will definitely work well as a "shared" stack object, 
because the "tail" of any given stack doesn't change with the operations.

As far as the queue goes, you run the risk of packratting if you share 
the underlying data structure. AFAIK, there are three common ways to 
implement a straight (as opposed to priority) queue.

   1. Linked lists with a head and tail reference
   2. Array list with a tail reference, and dequeue shifts all data.
   3. Array list with a head and tail reference. Known as a ring deque.

With the array approaches, you need to clear release the head reference 
on dequeue to avoid packratting. This happens automatically with the 
linked list. This means they can't be "immutable" as dequeue must be 
mutative.

For the linked list approach, enqueue is the problematic operation. A 
new tail must be appended and the old tail pointer made to point to it. 
  That operation changes the "next" value in the old tail.

So, you can decide "share on enqueue, copy on dequeue" or "copy on 
enqueue, share on dequeue". Based on requirements of your use-case, you 
can choose the appropriate alternative.  You can't have both, but if you 
can get halfway there.

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