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two JARs

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  two JARs bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2013-02-21 14:30 -0800
    Re: two JARs Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2013-02-21 14:44 -0800
      Re: two JARs Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2013-02-21 14:58 -0800
        Re: two JARs Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-02-21 19:12 -0400
          Re: two JARs markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-02-21 15:34 -0800
            Re: two JARs Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-02-21 19:45 -0400
              Re: two JARs markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-02-21 16:29 -0800
    Re: two JARs Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-02-21 15:25 -0800
      Re: two JARs Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 18:25 -0800
        Re: two JARs Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-02-21 23:59 -0800
          Re: two JARs Magnus Warker <warker@mailinator.com> - 2013-02-22 11:38 +0100
          Re: two JARs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-22 10:26 -0500
        Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-22 09:24 +0000
          Re: two JARs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-22 10:56 -0500
            Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-22 16:24 +0000
              Re: two JARs Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-02-22 18:54 +0100
                Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-22 18:38 +0000
              Re: two JARs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-22 14:15 -0500
          Re: two JARs Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 11:15 -0800
            Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-22 19:47 +0000
              Re: two JARs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-22 15:05 -0500
                Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-23 08:44 +0000
                  Re: two JARs Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 11:36 -0800
                    Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-23 20:03 +0000
                      Re: two JARs Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 12:32 -0800
        Re: two JARs Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-02-23 18:46 +0000
          Re: two JARs Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-02-23 23:30 +0100
            Re: two JARs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-24 13:38 -0500
    Re: two JARs lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-02-22 09:05 +0000

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#22428 — two JARs

I downloaded the JBox2d library, and I see that there are two JARs: one that ends in the name "sources" and one that doesn't.


jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3-sources.jar
jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3.jar


Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java programmer would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little confused.  I don't know which one to use.

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#22429

On 2/21/2013 14:30, bob smith wrote:
> I downloaded the JBox2d library, and I see that there are two JARs:
> one that ends in the name "sources" and one that doesn't.
>
>
> jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3-sources.jar jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3.jar
>
>
> Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java
> programmer would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little
> confused.  I don't know which one to use.
>
>
>

The sources jar is probably just a zip file of the source code.  The 
other jar file is the compiled class files zipped up.

knute...

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#22430

On 2/21/2013 14:44, Knute Johnson wrote:
> On 2/21/2013 14:30, bob smith wrote:
>> I downloaded the JBox2d library, and I see that there are two JARs:
>> one that ends in the name "sources" and one that doesn't.
>>
>>
>> jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3-sources.jar jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3.jar
>>
>>
>> Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java
>> programmer would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little
>> confused.  I don't know which one to use.
>>
>>
>>
>
> The sources jar is probably just a zip file of the source code.  The
> other jar file is the compiled class files zipped up.
>
> knute...

Do you know how to unjar(zip) them?

k...

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#22431

On 02/21/2013 06:58 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
> On 2/21/2013 14:44, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> On 2/21/2013 14:30, bob smith wrote:
>>> I downloaded the JBox2d library, and I see that there are two JARs:
>>> one that ends in the name "sources" and one that doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>> jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3-sources.jar jbox2d-library-2.1.2.3.jar
>>>
>>>
>>> Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java
>>> programmer would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little
>>> confused.  I don't know which one to use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The sources jar is probably just a zip file of the source code.  The
>> other jar file is the compiled class files zipped up.
>>
>> knute...
>
> Do you know how to unjar(zip) them?
>
> k...

Why unzip either?

AHS

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#22433

On 2/21/2013 3:12 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

>
> Why unzip either?


Well, for the "sources" one, compilers don't deal with source files 
inside a Zip/Jar file.

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#22434

On 02/21/2013 07:34 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 2/21/2013 3:12 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>
>>
>> Why unzip either?
>
>
> Well, for the "sources" one, compilers don't deal with source files
> inside a Zip/Jar file.
>
No, but that's not typically what they are for - they are, in my 
experience, used to inspect source in an IDE, where you attach them as 
JARs. Providing the source JARs for a library is better for 3rd party 
code inspection than decompiling, which is imperfect.

AHS

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#22435

On 2/21/2013 3:45 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 02/21/2013 07:34 PM, markspace wrote:
>> On 2/21/2013 3:12 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why unzip either?
>>
>>
>> Well, for the "sources" one, compilers don't deal with source files
>> inside a Zip/Jar file.
>>
> No, but that's not typically what they are for - they are, in my
> experience, used to inspect source in an IDE, where you attach them as
> JARs. Providing the source JARs for a library is better for 3rd party
> code inspection than decompiling, which is imperfect.


Oh I see what you're saying.  I'm used to Zip files for source 
"archives," but since the formats are basically identical I can see Java 
programmers using the Jar format for the same thing.

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#22432

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:30:20 -0800 (PST), bob smith
<bob@coolfone.comze.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java programmer
 would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little confused.  I
don't know which one to use.

look inside them with WinZip.  Presumably sources contains .java files
and the other .class files.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. 
~ Robert R. Coveyou (born: 1915 died: 1996-02-19 at age: 80)

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#22436

Roedy Green wrote:
> bob smith wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> Can someone help me understand exactly what a seasoned Java programmer
>>  would expect to be in each of these JARs?  I'm a little confused.  I
>> don't know which one to use.

Use them both - the "sources" JAR for the source code and the other one for the actual classes.

In general, a "seasoned Java programmer" would expect "foo-dah-lily.jar" to be suitable for 
insertion into the classpath, and "foo-dah-lily-source.jar" (or "...sources.jar") to contain the source 
files. Hence the word "source[s]" in the JAR name. Logical, huh?

> look inside them with WinZip.  Presumably sources contains .java files
> and the other .class files.

WinZip?

What if he's not using Windows?

Oh, if only there were a cross-platform tool for manipulating, creating, and examing JAR 
files. We could call it - let's see now, something that lets you know it's for JAR files - 
hmm - for JAR files ... I know! We can call it "jar"!

And Oracle could ship it as a standard part of the JDK!

And they would document it at 
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/jar/index.html
and related pages!

Then the OP could RTFM!

-- 
Lew

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#22437

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:25:37 -0800 (PST), Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>What if he's not using Windows?

jar.exe is more designed for building jars than exploring them. WinZip
works on jars and lets you explore and selectively extract visually.
Granted it only works Windows, and the latest version 17 is suffering
so badly from irrelevant featuritis I refused to upgrade.

He could also use JarLook  http://mindprod.com/products1.html#JARLOOK
if he just want a quick idea of what was in there

Jar files are for all practical purposes also ZIP files, so he could
use the Unix analog of WinZip. I don't think you would find many Unix
users as raw as OP.  My guess he is a newbie Windows user.

Why the implication I had never heard of jar.exe?  You know that is
not true.  Please just give your excellent advice without feeling
compelled to decorate it with a putdown.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. 
~ Robert R. Coveyou (born: 1915 died: 1996-02-19 at age: 80)

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#22440

On 02/22/2013 08:59 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:25:37 -0800 (PST), Lew<lewbloch@gmail.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>What if he's not using Windows?

> jar.exe is more designed for building jars than exploring them. WinZip
> works on jars and lets you explore and selectively extract visually.

You can do both build and explore jars with the jar command on both 
platforms.

I believe that you want to argue for having a GUI for exploration.

> Granted it only works Windows, and the latest version 17 is suffering
> so badly from irrelevant featuritis I refused to upgrade.
>
> He could also use JarLook  http://mindprod.com/products1.html#JARLOOK
> if he just want a quick idea of what was in there

jar t file.jar | less -S

Magnus

-- 
This is Unix-Land. In quiet nights, you can hear the Windows machines 
reboot.

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#22447

On 2/22/2013 2:59 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:25:37 -0800 (PST), Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>> What if he's not using Windows?
>
> jar.exe is more designed for building jars than exploring them. WinZip
> works on jars and lets you explore and selectively extract visually.
> Granted it only works Windows, and the latest version 17 is suffering
> so badly from irrelevant featuritis I refused to upgrade.

No need to use WinZip for any recent Windows version.

Windows/file explorer understands zip format!

Arne

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#22439

On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
> Roedy Green wrote:
>> bob smith wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

[snip]

>
> And they would document it at
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/jar/index.html
> and related pages!
>
> Then the OP could RTFM!

<rant>

Will you STFU with the RTFM

Why is it that you feel you need to insert this piece of bullcrap into
almost every reply. People come here for help, not everyone is as
knowledgeable about Java as you you claim to be. Besides, if everyone 
RTFM as you suggest there would be nobody for you to whine at.

If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should 
be able to understand that one.

</rant>

Bloch apologists beware. I'm just in the mood for it today %-(

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#22450

On 2/22/2013 4:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
>> Roedy Green wrote:
>>> bob smith wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> And they would document it at
>> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/jar/index.html
>> and related pages!
>>
>> Then the OP could RTFM!
>
> <rant>
>
> Will you STFU with the RTFM
>
> Why is it that you feel you need to insert this piece of bullcrap into
> almost every reply. People come here for help, not everyone is as
> knowledgeable about Java as you you claim to be. Besides, if everyone
> RTFM as you suggest there would be nobody for you to whine at.
>
> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should
> be able to understand that one.

In general it is better to learn people how to solve problem
(by reading the documentation) than by explaining the specific
solution.

There are at least one meaning of F in RTFM where I don't see
a problem using that acronym.

Arne

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#22451

On 22/02/13 15:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/22/2013 4:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
>>> Roedy Green wrote:

[snip]

>>
>> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should
>> be able to understand that one.
>
> In general it is better to learn people how to solve problem
> (by reading the documentation) than by explaining the specific
> solution.

It's quite amazing how certain people in this group pounce on newbies
and pompously correct their English yet when old hands mess up the 
silence is deafening.

Because I'm in a much nicer frame of mind that I was this morning allow 
me to respectfully correct your English .. no don't bother too thank me, 
really, I'm pleased to do it.

... it is better to *teach* people how to solve [a] problem ...


> There are at least one meaning of F in RTFM where I don't see
> a problem using that acronym.

there *is* at least one value for F in RTFM where ...

Oh REALLY, and which version do you think Bloch is espousing.

What is the point of lurking in this group if all you do is berate 
people for asking questions ... what question would *not* elicit a 
response of RTFM. I'd be interested to know ... really, fascinated in 
fact. What magnificent pearl of wisdom are you reluctant to cast before 
the proletarian swine in c.l.j.p that cannot be gleaned from Reading The 
Friendly Manual. In fact why bother to answer any question, why not set 
up an auto-responder that simply responds to *every* post to c.l.j.p 
with a simple RTFM.

FFS

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#22452

2013-02-22 17:24, lipska the kat skrev:
> On 22/02/13 15:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/22/2013 4:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
>>>> Roedy Green wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>
>>> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should
>>> be able to understand that one.
>>
>> In general it is better to learn people how to solve problem
>> (by reading the documentation) than by explaining the specific
>> solution.
> 
> It's quite amazing how certain people in this group pounce on newbies
> and pompously correct their English yet when old hands mess up the
> silence is deafening.

Was that directed at Arne? Did he pounce on newbies or correct their
English here?

> Because I'm in a much nicer frame of mind that I was this morning allow
> me to respectfully correct your English .. no don't bother too thank me,
> really, I'm pleased to do it.
> 
> .... it is better to *teach* people how to solve [a] problem ...

In Scandinavian languages such as Danish the same word is used for learn
and teach.

>> There are at least one meaning of F in RTFM where I don't see
>> a problem using that acronym.

In Scandinavian languages there is no longer any difference between the
singular and the plural form of a verb. Arne seems to have a blind spot
there. He also often uses an adjective where an adverb is required.
Otherwise his English is fine, I think.

> there *is* at least one value for F in RTFM where ...
> 
> Oh REALLY, and which version do you think Bloch is espousing.
> 
> What is the point of lurking in this group if all you do is berate

I don't think Lew and Arne are lurking in this group, and they make good
contributions.

> people for asking questions ... what question would *not* elicit a
> response of RTFM. I'd be interested to know ... really, fascinated in
> fact. What magnificent pearl of wisdom are you reluctant to cast before
> the proletarian swine in c.l.j.p that cannot be gleaned from Reading The
> Friendly Manual. In fact why bother to answer any question, why not set
> up an auto-responder that simply responds to *every* post to c.l.j.p
> with a simple RTFM.
> 
> FFS

You're over-reacting and using foul abbreviations.

> lipska

What's the deal with your lame nym?



-- 
Lars Enderin

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#22454

On 22/02/13 17:54, Lars Enderin wrote:
> 2013-02-22 17:24, lipska the kat skrev:
>> On 22/02/13 15:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 2/22/2013 4:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
>>>>> Roedy Green wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>
>>>> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should
>>>> be able to understand that one.
>>>
>>> In general it is better to learn people how to solve problem
>>> (by reading the documentation) than by explaining the specific
>>> solution.
>>
>> It's quite amazing how certain people in this group pounce on newbies
>> and pompously correct their English yet when old hands mess up the
>> silence is deafening.
>
> Was that directed at Arne? Did he pounce on newbies or correct their
> English here?

Oh hello Lars, I was wondering when you'd poke your nose in.

As usual you've got the wrong end of the stick but I really can't be 
arsed to explain it to you. I have better things to do with my time.

>> FFS
>
> You're over-reacting and using foul abbreviations.

"foul abbreviations"

Nice one, I'll have to remember that one.

> What's the deal with your lame nym

The deal is that you have no idea, and that's the way I like it.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#22456

On 2/22/2013 11:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 22/02/13 15:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 2/22/2013 4:24 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 22/02/13 02:25, Lew wrote:
>>>> Roedy Green wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>>
>>> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should
>>> be able to understand that one.
>>
>> In general it is better to learn people how to solve problem
>> (by reading the documentation) than by explaining the specific
>> solution.

>> There are at least one meaning of F in RTFM where I don't see
>> a problem using that acronym.

> Oh REALLY, and which version do you think Bloch is espousing.

I don't know.

And I would not criticize his language based on guesses on what
he meant.

> What is the point of lurking in this group if all you do is berate
> people for asking questions

People lurking does not berate people by definition.

And since of all the people in this (sub)thread then you are the
only one that may fit the description of lurking you may be best
qualified to answer the question yourself.

>                            ... what question would *not* elicit a
> response of RTFM. I'd be interested to know ... really, fascinated in
> fact.

Most questions would not be answered by a link to the docs and a RTFM.

If it were so then one would be a perfect Java developer by
learning JLS, Java API and few more documents.

That is unfortunately not the case. Java development is much more
complex and difficult than just learning what code compiles and
what its semantics are.

All the most difficult/interesting questions "what is the best way
to ...", "why did they chose to ...", "any good recommendations
for ..." can not be answered by RTFM.

I would be tempted to say that if a question can be answered with
RTFM then the question should probably have been asked in cljh
instead of cljp.

But given that the poster most likely don't know if the question is
a RTFM question or not, then that rule has no practical significance.

>  What magnificent pearl of wisdom are you reluctant to cast before
> the proletarian swine in c.l.j.p that cannot be gleaned from Reading The
> Friendly Manual. In fact why bother to answer any question, why not set
> up an auto-responder that simply responds to *every* post to c.l.j.p
> with a simple RTFM.

If you can code a bot that reads questions posted to cljh, analyze
the text and reply with RTFM *and* a link to the specific section in
TFM, then I think you should do so.

I would not hold my breath though ...

Arne

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#22457

lipska the kat wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Then the OP could RTFM!
> <rant>
> Will you STFU with the RTFM

Why, do you think it's a bad idea to RTFM?

> Why is it that you feel you need to insert this piece of bullcrap into

Because it's the single most empowering piece of advice they can follow. Duh.

> almost every reply. People come here for help, not everyone is as
> knowledgeable about Java as you you claim to be. Besides, if everyone 

I don't claim to be knowledgeable about Java. Where did you get that?

I provide answers that help. RTFM, and the link thereto, is helpful.

> RTFM as you suggest there would be nobody for you to whine at.

Are you saying that everyone RTFM and gaining the knowledge they need 
is bad?

> If you don't like a post the DON'T REPLY it's so simple even you should 
> be able to understand that one.
> </rant>

What evidence do you have that I don't like any post here?

> Bloch apologists beware. I'm just in the mood for it today %-(

This is an engineering forum. Information here isn't about mood, it's about 
solutions. I RTFM all the time. Don't you?

-- 
Lew

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#22458

On 22/02/13 19:15, Lew wrote:
> lipska the kat wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
[snip]

>
> This is an engineering forum. Information here isn't about mood, it's about
> solutions. I RTFM all the time. Don't you?

Of course, anyone that engineers software does but here's the thing, I 
don't need to be *told* to RTFM. If you know anything about education, 
if you've had any experience of passing knowledge to other people you 
will know that you can learn from the rawest interested beginner. I've 
done my time as a technical instructor and I can tell you from 
experience that some of the most profound insights into software design 
and development can come from beginners, they may be incomplete, they 
may be naive but they can really make you *think*, about your ideas, 
about your [bad] habits, about your very core beliefs and understanding.

How many potential sources of inspiration have not posted to c.l.j.p 
because all they can see is some herbert telling them to RTFM.

It doesn't matter if someone asks a naive question, I will continue to 
answer questions where I can because every time I answer one it makes me 
think, and learn and look at things from a different perspective... I 
like thinking, not least because "I think therefore I am"

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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