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java still worthwhile?

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  java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-26 17:25 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-26 18:37 -0500
      Re: java still worthwhile? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2019-02-27 15:36 +0100
        Re: java still worthwhile? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2019-02-27 20:33 +0000
          Re: java still worthwhile? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2019-02-28 23:16 +0100
            Re: java still worthwhile? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2019-02-28 23:24 +0000
    Re: java still worthwhile? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2019-02-27 07:28 -0500
      Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-27 09:32 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2019-02-27 05:18 -0800
      Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-27 16:34 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2019-03-01 11:10 +0100
      Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-03-01 10:11 -0500
        Re: java still worthwhile? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2019-03-01 07:22 -0800
          Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-03-01 13:34 -0500
        Re: java still worthwhile? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2019-03-01 22:07 -0500
        Re: java still worthwhile? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2019-03-05 09:40 +0100
          Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-03-05 09:33 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2019-03-01 22:09 -0500

#38733 — java still worthwhile?

Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38734

On 2/26/2019 6:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
>> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
> I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with your
> dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
> 
> I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit multiple
> files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one argument for
> using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by understanding ant
> and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the same way as you'd use
> 'make' when building a multi-source-module C program.
> 
> This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
> with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
> 
> ant clean all docs
> 
> to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation with
> javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this covers the
> other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
> 
> This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
> from careful design of classes and the way they interact.
> 
> 

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple 
times. I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers. I 
don't know anything about refactoring. I would spend the time on a 
use-case diagram and class/SDK/etc. diagram; might not be all as easy as 
I think. Getting into the dirt of programming is going to require a 
reference to rely on. Microsoft's PowerShell ISE seems to be something 
closer to what I could do now that I think of it.

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38738

On 2019-02-27 01:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only 
> gets dumped at a crash or fatal error is also good for long-running 
> processes

Much agreed. Out of curiosity, how do you handle the trigger?

-- 
DF.

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#38743

On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:36:30 +0100, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:

> On 2019-02-27 01:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only gets dumped at a
>> crash or fatal error is also good for long-running processes
> 
> Much agreed. Out of curiosity, how do you handle the trigger?

Its boringly straight-forward. I have a ReportError class that writes all 
tracing, warning and error messages to stderr. It also implements a trace 
level concept to make tracing verbosity controllable as well as turning 
tracing on or off for the current run. Trace level zero is no tracing. 
Increasing the trace level increases the amount of detail output. Since 
the first parameter of the various trace() methods is the trace level, a 
programmer can use the trace level as he sees fit to control what it 
traced. I usually use level 1 to trace top level method exit, level 2 
adds tracing top-level method entry and higher levels to add 
progressively more details (contents of local variables, nested method 
calls, etc.).
 
ReportError also has methods that enable a circular buffer and configure 
its size. Using them causes all trace() messages to be written to the 
buffer. Whenever ReportError warn() or error() methods are called the 
circular buffer contents are output immediately before the "Warning: xxxx" 
or "Error: xxxx" message. The only difference between the two (apart from 
the prefix) is that error() ends the run while warn() doesn't. 


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38768

On 2019-02-27 21:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:36:30 +0100, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-02-27 01:24, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only gets dumped at a
>>> crash or fatal error is also good for long-running processes
>>
>> Much agreed. Out of curiosity, how do you handle the trigger?
> 
> Its boringly straight-forward. I have a ReportError class that writes all 
> tracing, warning and error messages to stderr. It also implements a trace 
> level concept to make tracing verbosity controllable as well as turning 
> tracing on or off for the current run. Trace level zero is no tracing. 
> Increasing the trace level increases the amount of detail output. Since 
> the first parameter of the various trace() methods is the trace level, a 
> programmer can use the trace level as he sees fit to control what it 
> traced. I usually use level 1 to trace top level method exit, level 2 
> adds tracing top-level method entry and higher levels to add 
> progressively more details (contents of local variables, nested method 
> calls, etc.).
>  
> ReportError also has methods that enable a circular buffer and configure 
> its size. Using them causes all trace() messages to be written to the 
> buffer. Whenever ReportError warn() or error() methods are called the 
> circular buffer contents are output immediately before the "Warning: xxxx" 
> or "Error: xxxx" message. The only difference between the two (apart from 
> the prefix) is that error() ends the run while warn() doesn't. 

Thanks.

No logging framework? Or at least, none of the established ones? Is that
really a good idea?

-- 
DF.

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#38770

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 23:16:58 +0100, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:

> No logging framework?
>
Nope. I use it exactly as I described and it does exactly what I want it 
to do. Its compatible with anything I've written in Java, from daemons 
and cron jobs to desktop GUI applications.

> Is that really a good idea?
>
So far, yes. I expect it wouldn't be too difficult to interface it to the 
Linux logging system if needed, or it could simply write to 
/var/log/mylogs/ThisAppsLog.log and add a recipe to the logrotate 
configuration to manage the logs it outputs.

FWIW ReportError is a fairly direct reimplementation of a very similar 
library module I wrote for C development, which got migrated to Java as 
soon as I found I needed it, along with an improved replacement for C's 
getopt() command line parser.

The circular buffer was inspired by a mainframe OS (ICL's George 3) that 
I used to also support with my sysadmin's hat on. It used two circular 
buffers, both holding about 240 messages, but with one much finer grained 
that the other , so one captured what the OS as a whole was doing when it 
crashed and the other captured detail of what the chapter that crashed 
had been up to. That experience taught me that a straight snapshot-type 
crash dump often isn't a whole lot of use without a trail showing what 
recent events and activities preceded the crash.  


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38735

On 2/26/2019 5:25 PM, dale wrote:
> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

     In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
who are already believers.

     It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value.  If you
want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
be just a bit suspicious about the outcome.  If you're studying the
plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
grain of salt.  And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!

     Just sayin' ...

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
Six hundred ninety-three days to go.

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#38737

On 2/27/2019 7:28 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 2/26/2019 5:25 PM, dale wrote:
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting 
>> to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
>      In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
> the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
> who are already believers.
> 
>      It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
> practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value.  If you
> want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
> be just a bit suspicious about the outcome.  If you're studying the
> plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
> grain of salt.  And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
> asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!
> 
>      Just sayin' ...
> 

Just listening ...

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38736

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:25:25 PM UTC-5, dale wrote:
> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
> -- 
> dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

Java has been worth our while for the past decade or so, I can only assume the future for it is still bright.

I wasn't crazy about Netbeans last I tried it, though I hear they completely rewrote it since, but am fine with Eclipse.

Everyone needs to know how object oriented architecture works because that is modern programming whether you're using Java, Javascript, C#, or one of the other popular languages.  If you're not working with objects you're living in the dark ages.

I write relatively simple Java for a small business.  I have my own fairly extensive API I've been working on for over 10 years, but I don't currently use anything fancy.  If you want to work for a corporation you'll need to know ant, gradle, Spring, or other such tools.  I just right click my project and select export as jar.  Tools can make things easier, particularly if you're on a team of developers (I've had some help here and there but I'm basically a one man team), but some tools can also restrict what you're able to do.  I like being able to customize every bit of code to do exactly what I had in mind.

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#38744

On 2/27/2019 8:18 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:25:25 PM UTC-5, dale wrote:
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
>> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
>>
>> -- 
>> dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/
> 
> Java has been worth our while for the past decade or so, I can only assume the future for it is still bright.
> 
> I wasn't crazy about Netbeans last I tried it, though I hear they completely rewrote it since, but am fine with Eclipse.

I'll have a look at Eclipse


> 
> Everyone needs to know how object oriented architecture works because that is modern programming whether you're using Java, Javascript, C#, or one of the other popular languages.  If you're not working with objects you're living in the dark ages.
> 
> I write relatively simple Java for a small business.  I have my own fairly extensive API I've been working on for over 10 years, but I don't currently use anything fancy.  If you want to work for a corporation you'll need to know ant, gradle, Spring, or other such tools.  I just right click my project and select export as jar.  Tools can make things easier, particularly if you're on a team of developers (I've had some help here and there but I'm basically a one man team), but some tools can also restrict what you're able to do.  I like being able to customize every bit of code to do exactly what I had in mind.
> 

Thank you Eric !!!


-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38775

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:

> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
a few.

If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
the door at almost any employer.

If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
least have a working familiarity with the following:

- Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
three IDEs in their skills section.

- Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
since 2005.

- Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.

- The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#38776

On 3/1/2019 5:10 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
>> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
> Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
> language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
> ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
> decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
> knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
> Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
> a few.
> 
> If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
> you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
> considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
> fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
> that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
> the door at almost any employer.
> 
> If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
> least have a working familiarity with the following:
> 
> - Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
> from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
> the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
> but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
> simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
> three IDEs in their skills section.
> 
> - Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
> development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
> runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
> loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
> since 2005.
> 
> - Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
> control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
> colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
> control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.
> 
> - The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
> thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
> framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
> framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
> prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
> founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
> matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
> SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.
> 
> Liebe Gruesse,
> 		Joerg
> 

Thanks for the detailed reply Joerg !!!

Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

How about github instead of git?

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38777

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:11:18 AM UTC-5, dale wrote:
> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?
> 
> How about github instead of git?
> 

He did say "one of the big three IDEs", I'm not sure about the third but I would assume that includes Eclipse and NetBeans.

Any versioning tool that does checkin-checkout should be fine.  I haven't used github.  I use the git tool with the free GUI program SourceTree.

I haven't needed tools like maven or frameworks like Spring for my personal Java project (small business, I wrote the entire API myself with a little help on a couple classes) but you will need both for most Java businesses.

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#38780

On 3/1/2019 10:22 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 10:11:18 AM UTC-5, dale wrote:
>> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?
>>
>> How about github instead of git?
>>
> 
> He did say "one of the big three IDEs", I'm not sure about the third but I would assume that includes Eclipse and NetBeans.
> 
> Any versioning tool that does checkin-checkout should be fine.  I haven't used github.  I use the git tool with the free GUI program SourceTree.
> 
> I haven't needed tools like maven or frameworks like Spring for my personal Java project (small business, I wrote the entire API myself with a little help on a couple classes) but you will need both for most Java businesses.
> 

I'll try to get back to java on Netbeans. I use github for my website 
code and a few small things. As for maven and frameworks, and business 
working it will be a long term project for me.

Thank You Eric !!!

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38781

On 3/1/2019 10:11 AM, dale wrote:
> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

It is not nearly as popular at IntellJ IDEA and Eclipse, but
you can certainly develop with it.

Arne

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#38787

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:11:08 -0500, dale wrote:

> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay too.

> How about github instead of git?

Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
that, but its a good aproximation).

That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
that's a perfectly fine choice.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#38791

On 3/5/2019 3:40 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:11:08 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?
> 
> Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
> IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
> either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay too.
> 
>> How about github instead of git?
> 
> Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
> by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
> GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
> that, but its a good aproximation).
> 
> That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
> and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
> a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
> that's a perfectly fine choice.
> 
> Liebe Gruesse,
> 		Joerg
> 

Thank you very much Joerg !!!

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#38782

On 2/26/2019 5:25 PM, dale wrote:
> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume.

Depends on what you want.

But Java is certainly still job relevant.

Arne

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