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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #22671 > unrolled thread

Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...

Started byArved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
First post2013-03-01 22:34 -0400
Last post2013-03-11 17:54 -0400
Articles 5 on this page of 45 — 12 participants

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  Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-01 22:34 -0400
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-02 04:00 +0100
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 00:13 -0400
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-03-01 22:11 -0800
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-02 08:57 +0000
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:48 -0500
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-04 08:29 +0000
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 09:58 -0400
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-02 14:46 +0000
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-03-02 07:11 -0800
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:55 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-03-06 09:07 -0800
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:13 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:47 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2013-03-03 21:57 -0500
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 22:08 -0500
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-03 23:11 -0400
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:15 -0500
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 05:08 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:42 -0500
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:45 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-04 05:53 -0400
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:10 -0500
          Writing ones one Annotation processor (was: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-07 02:17 +0100
            Re: Writing ones one Annotation processor Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:36 -0500
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 06:39 -0400
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:41 -0500
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 20:28 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 21:24 -0500
                  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 05:49 -0400
                    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-08 12:20 +0000
                    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-03-08 12:06 -0600
                      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 20:44 -0400
                        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:07 -0400
                          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-11 23:27 +0100
                            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:33 -0400
                          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:12 -0300
                            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:24 -0400
                              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:38 -0300
                                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:58 -0400
                              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-03-13 08:04 +0100
                      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:57 -0400
                        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-11 16:46 -0700
                          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:27 -0400
                    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:54 -0400

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#22941

FromRobert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com>
Date2013-03-13 08:04 +0100
Message-ID<aqamp0FaidtU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#22915
On 12.03.2013 01:24, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> For many business admin apps, then all the bells and whistles are
> just distractions.

I couldn't agree more.  Everyday I see many web applications which would 
have looked as slick and be as usable without the ton of JS code in the 
page.  Plus, you could go back and forth and not loose form input from 
browser history...   *sigh* I guess all the web developers and designers 
out there need to make a living as well...

Kind regards

	robert


-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#22903

FromArne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Date2013-03-11 17:57 -0400
Message-ID<513e5358$0$32106$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#22825
On 3/8/2013 1:06 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote:
>> That's right, that's the expressed reason for this kind of split.
>
> It's not a very good argument after the introduction of CSS, though,
> as the division of labour (such as it ever were) has moved to the HTML
> / CSS border.

I consider the distance CSS-HTML much smaller than HTML-code.

Of course I could be wrong. I still write mostly 2.0. :-)

> I think a better argument for maintaining the separation of concern is
> that neither Java nor HTML embeds well in the other. On the other
> hand, none of the many frameworks that tries to solve the issue have
> exactly whelmed me over either.

Some problems are just hard to solve.

O/R is not easy either.

Arne

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#22913

FromLew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
Date2013-03-11 16:46 -0700
Message-ID<c09dd96f-73f8-4a02-87d7-68e8841689a0@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#22903
Stefan Ram wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj writes:
>>I consider the distance CSS-HTML much smaller than HTML-code.
> 
>   One might consider HTML code. For example, this
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040428174214/http://www.geocities.com/flo_kreidler/tictactoe.html
> 
>   is an interactive game of »tic tac toe« written in HTML
>   (no scripting involved).
> 
>   But such examples are so rare that I actually have to
>   trouble archive.org to get one!

Being as this is cl.java.programmer, it stands to reason that in this context "code" means Java.

It is good to be precise, though it doesn't alter the validity of Arne's point given what was meant.

-- 
Lew

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#22916

FromArne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Date2013-03-11 20:27 -0400
Message-ID<513e7663$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#22913
On 3/11/2013 7:46 PM, Lew wrote:
> Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj writes:
>>> I consider the distance CSS-HTML much smaller than HTML-code.
>>
>>    One might consider HTML code. For example, this
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20040428174214/http://www.geocities.com/flo_kreidler/tictactoe.html
>>
>>    is an interactive game of »tic tac toe« written in HTML
>>    (no scripting involved).
>>
>>    But such examples are so rare that I actually have to
>>    trouble archive.org to get one!
>
> Being as this is cl.java.programmer, it stands to reason that in this context "code" means Java.
>
> It is good to be precise, though it doesn't alter the validity of Arne's point given what was meant.

Java is obvious given the group and the starting point of the discussion.

But it can easily be generalized to all languages of that type 
(variable, operators, if, loops etc.).

Arne

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#22902

FromArne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Date2013-03-11 17:54 -0400
Message-ID<513e5291$0$32106$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#22820
On 3/8/2013 4:49 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 03/07/2013 10:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 3/7/2013 7:28 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> On 03/07/2013 12:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/2013 5:39 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>>> My next big Java-space web app development effort is going to be
>>>>> shifting away from JSF. I've been using the framework for 8 or 9
>>>>> years,
>>>>> and I'm unhappy with it.
>>> [ SNIP ]
>>>>
>>>> Sounds as if you may like RoR.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Maybe, maybe not. When I said that my web work was basically mostly or
>>> all CRUD, I was overly simplifying. While ultimately it *is* mostly
>>> CRUD, there are always business rules and workflow associated with what
>>> CRUD is going to happen, so the pages may be complex and not just
>>> straightforward list+add+delete+edit RoR-type pages. Mind you, I only
>>> looked at RoR once and casually about 3 or 4 years ago.
>>>
>>> It might be more accurate for me to say that the web page actions are
>>> always CRUD-like, they are affecting state of something. That might be
>>> session state, view state, JPA extended state, or database state (upon a
>>> commit). Doesn't really matter what state it is.
>>>
>>> But the generated HTML might be - often is - quite complex. Not
>>> predictable by any scaffolding type system.
>>>
>>> What I'm getting at is, it seems to me like everyone out there who built
>>> a web framework got fixated on the idea that you have to have page
>>> templates *and* code behind. Different artifacts altogether, and you
>>> always need two or more to implement a delivered page. And considering
>>> how tightly bound these pairs of template + codebehind usually are, why
>>> do we have two artifacts anyway? Separation of concerns? No, the things
>>> are inextricably bound together. Ease of development or maintenance? Not
>>> bloody likely - you're forever jumping between at least two source files
>>> to get things done.
>>>
>>> So why not just have a single code artifact that implements a page?
>>> That's one of my arguments.
>>
>> It is possible to write plain JSP or PHP with all the code embedded in
>> the page.
>>
>> It is usually not considered good, because you mix the UI layout
>> and the code.
>>
>> Web frameworks and desktop frameworks (WPF, JavaFX) have been
>> moving away from that for years.
>>
>> But the benefit of the separation builds on an assumption that
>> they will be modified independently - potentially by different teams.
>
> That's right, that's the expressed reason for this kind of split.
>
>> That may make sense in large public facing web sites.
>>
>> But in an admin web GUI for some business app exposing some basic CRUD
>> functionality, then it will often be the same person modifying both at
>> the same time.
>
> As you noted, there is a class of web apps where different people
> develop and maintain presentation artifacts, and other people work on
> code. Often graphics designers are involved, a full-blown CMS is in
> play, etc etc.
>
> But there are also a great number of business apps where, as you noted
> again, it is the same people creating and modifying everything. All
> developers. There's no advantage - to me, anyway - of having a separate
> page template, and it's actually a hindrance. I gain nothing in
> visualization from having the XHTML template, since it often deviates
> from the rendered output significantly enough that you have to run the
> app and view in the browser anyhow.
>
>> I just have a feeling that you will not be happy with an
>> all code embedded solution either.
>
> Never know until you try. :-)

True.

But still.

>>>> Or if you want to stick in the Java world (not counting
>>>> RoR with JRuby) one of:
>>>> * Spring Roo
>>>> * Myclipse Spring MVC scaffolding
>>>> * Myclipse GWT Spring scaffolding
>>>>
>>>> Disclaimer: I have never used any of these, so I have no idea how
>>>> good or bad they are.
>>>>
>>> I still need to do a lot of research. I am not sure anyone has produced
>>> what I am looking for.
>>
>> That will depend on how perfect a match you are looking for.
>>
>
> If it's all code I'll at least take a look. If it uses separate page
> templates then it's invariably same-old, same-old. But it doesn't
> otherwise have to be a perfect fit.

If you need more that the very simple DB CRUD, then scaffolding will
not solve your problem.

But in the RoR and clones world they are not as afraid of <% %> as
in the Java world.

Arne

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