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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #16112 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Ramon F. Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-07-19 13:09 -0700 |
| Last post | 2012-08-02 01:57 -0700 |
| Articles | 13 on this page of 113 — 21 participants |
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Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Ramon F. Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> - 2012-07-19 13:09 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-19 14:12 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Ivan The Not-So-Bad <1suf41n@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-19 21:47 +0000
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-19 18:00 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-19 14:35 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-19 17:58 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? David LaRue <huey.dll@gte.net> - 2012-07-19 22:22 +0000
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-07-19 17:41 -0500
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-19 23:29 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2012-07-20 07:16 +0000
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-20 13:39 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-20 19:33 +0000
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-21 00:02 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-20 15:22 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-20 23:45 +0000
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-20 19:54 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-21 12:15 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-21 19:21 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-22 19:26 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-22 22:52 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-23 09:17 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-23 10:51 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-23 11:42 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:11 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-23 13:53 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-23 21:00 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-23 18:48 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-24 15:44 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-24 13:47 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-24 14:18 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-24 14:38 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-24 18:36 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-24 16:32 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-24 20:20 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 10:10 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 13:58 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 13:38 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 18:42 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-25 06:44 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 10:14 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-25 15:05 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 16:07 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 19:35 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 17:33 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 21:00 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-26 09:06 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-26 13:04 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-26 09:36 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-26 13:10 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-26 11:01 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-26 14:47 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-07-26 17:13 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-27 09:05 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-04 10:17 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-08-04 07:45 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-05 10:50 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-08-05 08:41 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-06 21:23 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-08-06 22:11 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-08-06 22:01 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-08-06 21:58 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-27 09:30 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-26 10:57 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-03 00:41 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 16:48 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-08-02 19:52 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 17:33 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-25 06:41 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 10:38 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-24 18:42 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-24 16:35 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-24 20:07 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-24 17:36 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 10:22 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-25 10:57 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 13:41 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-25 13:44 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 14:34 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 18:46 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 16:10 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-30 14:59 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-30 19:55 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-02 23:41 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-08-02 18:31 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-25 15:54 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 16:11 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 19:30 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-25 18:49 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-25 16:13 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-26 11:35 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-26 09:16 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-27 13:21 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-27 09:16 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-27 21:02 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-27 13:47 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-27 13:51 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-07-27 17:11 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-28 18:36 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-28 13:50 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-29 15:24 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-23 19:46 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-23 18:49 -0700
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-23 22:59 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-23 19:40 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-20 19:51 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-21 19:16 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-07-21 19:49 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-23 03:28 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-07-20 03:03 -0500
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-07-20 19:46 -0400
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-21 18:59 +0200
Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? R kamalakkannan <kamalakkannan.ney@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 01:57 -0700
Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]
| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-29 15:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <hgdb185t0pj7kpge4se4didneoi69akt4e@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #16448 |
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 18:36:59 +0200, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 27.07.2012 23:11, David Lamb wrote:
>
>> I taught introductory programming for several years in several
>> languages. You don't need to get as complex as backtracking. The natural
>> places to teach recursion to introductory students are with binary tree
>> search and quicksort, both of which can be taught in the first or second
>> 1-semester course.
>
>Right. Although I'd consider Quicksort too complex as an introduction
>to recursion as the algorithms workings are not so easy to grasp and
>would distract from the concept of recursion. Tree search seems to be
What complex? Find the pivot. Sort before the pivot. Sort
after the pivot. Rinse, lather, etc.
>the most appropriate to me. Still, introducing recursion as a concept
>in programming does not belong into class reference documentation. This
>is something for a tutorial or other introductory material.
I agree. Recursion is a standard concept.
Sincerely,
Gene wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-23 19:46 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <500de23e$0$289$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #16248 |
On 7/23/2012 1:03 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 09:17:09 +0200, Robert Klemme
> <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23.07.2012 04:52, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 7/22/2012 10:26 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>>> document using UML diagrams in some of my uni courses. I generally
>>>> did them *after* I wrote the code.
>>>
>>> Which is wrong.
>>
>> Not necessarily. As long as it's finished before someone else needs to
>> work with the code. :-)
>
> Yes.
>
> And, UML did not do me any good. UML did not help me design my
> systems. Indeed, all of the fiddling about with the editor was
> distracting.
>
> There is a lot to be said for simply putting pen to ink. It is
> quick, and it is amenable to change.
>
>>>> They were a time sink and did
>>>> not add anything to my understanding of the system.
>>>
>>> Maybe.
>
> No, definitely the case. It is much slower to use a UML editor
> than simply sketching.
>
>>> But given that the purpose of the UML is to give other a better
>>> understanding of the system not so relevant.
>>
>> +1
>
> UML is hardly the only way to do so.
>
> Have you ever used a sketch map? A good sketch can be very
> useful and very quickly made.
You seem to be confusing the notation and the media.
You can use whiteboard or paper for UML. In fact that is rather
common as well.
If you need to put it in a word document or in a web page, then
using a tool instead of something handwritten makes it look a bit
more professional.
>>>> I can understand someone not wanting to do things that do not
>>>> help do the job. Avoid needless work.
>>>
>>> But before concluding about whether it helps or are useless it is
>>> necessary to understand why and how it is done.
>>
>> Exactly. Gene makes it sound as if the whole purpose of putting UML
>> diagrams was the benefit of the *writer*. I rather think the writer can
>> make good use of UML on a whiteboard or piece of paper during design
>> phase. UML in documents is there to help *readers* better understand a
>> design.
>
> That is about it. Now, why can't the reader read the sketch?
> Even if I have to redraw the sketch to neaten it up, that is almost
> certainly faster than entering the data with a UML editor.
>
> My big complaint with UML is that the tools to enter it are
> awkward and slow to use. I prefer to avoid such tools.
Pick another tool.
> My secondary one is that it tries to force-fit things into its
> diagram types.
You can invent your own language, but you communicate more
efficiently by using a language that other understand.
UML is by far the most widely used notation today. Making it
the best for communication with other.
>> <rant>I have seen quite a lot of documents apparently written with the
>> writer in mind instead of the reader ("brain dump"). That attitude
>> seems to be fairly common. This is unfortunate since it limits
>> usefulness of documents a lot.
>>
>> Unfortunately that seems to be true for code as well: there seems to be
>> a tendency to just make things work without consideration of ease of
>> use. That is mostly determined by API and not internals. Programmers
>> (on average) seem to be more concerned with internal workings of their
>> classes than with the public visible and usable API.</rant>
>
> What rant?
His own.
Check up on XML syntax.
> If you want an example of imitation documentation, look at the
> official documentation for Java. It has about one-third of what it
> should. Were I grading it, it would get a solid D.
With your skills in software engineering I suspect that is a good thing.
Arne
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-23 18:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <kovr089hcub1hbhtvg32cnp0in3k3pv50j@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #16275 |
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:46:05 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
>On 7/23/2012 1:03 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
[snip]
>> If you want an example of imitation documentation, look at the
>> official documentation for Java. It has about one-third of what it
>> should. Were I grading it, it would get a solid D.
>
>With your skills in software engineering I suspect that is a good thing.
How cute.
How on earth does someone learn about a system when the
documentation is so inadequate?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-23 22:59 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <500e0f9b$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #16286 |
On 7/23/2012 9:49 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:46:05 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> > wrote: > >> On 7/23/2012 1:03 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > [snip] > >>> If you want an example of imitation documentation, look at the >>> official documentation for Java. It has about one-third of what it >>> should. Were I grading it, it would get a solid D. >> >> With your skills in software engineering I suspect that is a good thing. > > How cute. > > How on earth does someone learn about a system when the > documentation is so inadequate? Millions have managed to do so. It is even seen that Java documentation is praised over the documentation for other languages. Arne
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-23 19:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <500de0d7$0$289$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #16246 |
On 7/23/2012 3:17 AM, Robert Klemme wrote: > On 23.07.2012 04:52, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> On 7/22/2012 10:26 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >>> document using UML diagrams in some of my uni courses. I generally >>> did them *after* I wrote the code. >> >> Which is wrong. > > Not necessarily. As long as it's finished before someone else needs to > work with the code. :-) Just like writing unit tests before implementation reduces the risk of unit tests expecting wrong behavior to match wrong code, then writing the UML before implementation reduces the risk of of UML design being influenced by bad implementation. Of course both should be updated if the implementation is changed for good reasons. >>> They were a time sink and did >>> not add anything to my understanding of the system. >> >> Maybe. >> >> But given that the purpose of the UML is to give other a better >> understanding of the system not so relevant. > > +1 > >>> I can understand someone not wanting to do things that do not >>> help do the job. Avoid needless work. >> >> But before concluding about whether it helps or are useless it is >> necessary to understand why and how it is done. > > Exactly. Gene makes it sound as if the whole purpose of putting UML > diagrams was the benefit of the *writer*. I rather think the writer can > make good use of UML on a whiteboard or piece of paper during design > phase. UML in documents is there to help *readers* better understand a > design. Yes. Arne
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-20 19:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <5009eef1$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #16143 |
On 7/20/2012 7:39 AM, Robert Klemme wrote: > On 20.07.2012 09:16, Fredrik Jonson wrote: >> In <lluh08lnc655tiu1mo4972oddebc3ciss2@4ax.com> Roedy Green wrote: >>> I think the biggest problem [of UML] comes with keeping it up >>> to date. >> >> The more expensive UML tools have round trip engineering which makes >> keeping it up to date with code less of a hassle. My limited experience >> with round trip engineering is that has its own weakness; it picks up all >> minor parts of the code too, including things that are not necessarily is >> important to get the main picture of the design. > > Graphical programming (what these round trip tools promise to be able to > do) does not work. The mere fact that you need to have every part of > the code in the diagram leads to diagram overload. One of the important > tasks when creating diagrams (not only UML) is to select what needs to > be shown and how it needs to be shown. This is something a human needs > to do. It cannot be automated. Normally to understand a system only a > few classes need to be depicted and not with every detail (method, data > member etc.). Updating diagrams with every changed detail is tedious > and useless because it does not improve understanding. Often the basic > relationships between classes remain the same because they are at the > heart of the design. Completely agree. > My preferred tool is Visio with the free available set of UML stencils. > This makes creating UML diagrams easy (because all the elements are > there) but retains enough flexibility to mix in other information as > needed. I think ArgoUML is pretty nice. I has some generation and reverse generation capabilities but I consider those more as one time tools than the real round trip tool. >> Myself, I mostly use class diagrams and sequence diagrams to introduce a >> design to other developers. In most cases the diagrams never go further >> than a whiteboard. When I have to, I use Umlet to persist them too. > > I use these diagram types in decreasing (estimated) frequency: > - class > - activity > - state > - sequence > > rarely: > - object > - deployment For me: class, sequence, deployment, activity, use case. Arne
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| From | Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-21 19:16 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2a75025d855e624e98971d@202.177.16.121> |
| In reply to | #16143 |
In article <a6subnFf45U1@mid.individual.net>, shortcutter@googlemail.com says... > Graphical programming (what these round trip tools promise to be able > to do) does not work. The mere fact that you need to have every part > of the code in the diagram leads to diagram overload. I have professionally worked with a framework that tries to do this, so I've got a bit experience in that. It works remarkably well. What we were doing, when we were using the tool, was to model the database entities in detail as class diagrams, but for the activity diagrams we had to keep as much technical detail out of the diagrams as possible and abstract a lot. We described the broad business decisions only and coded the detail like you've been doing it all the time: In plain old Java. For conditionals, the framework generated a hook method from the diagram, which we filled with life. For each activity a view was generated by the framework, which we could customize using a UI- designer and Java. It's very convenient, as long as you don't try to squeeze everything into one diagram. The only drawback is that you're virtually always short of screen estate. > And btw., roundtrip tools don't help much with updating diagrams which > are sitting in text documents. We've not put the diagrams onto paper. All we modelled and talked about was stored in model-files that the system held in sync with the software. Kind regards, -Wanja- -- ..Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with, when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer] --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---
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| From | Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-21 19:49 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <a708e2Fch4U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #16191 |
On 21.07.2012 19:16, Wanja Gayk wrote: > In article <a6subnFf45U1@mid.individual.net>, shortcutter@googlemail.com > says... > >> Graphical programming (what these round trip tools promise to be able >> to do) does not work. The mere fact that you need to have every part >> of the code in the diagram leads to diagram overload. > > I have professionally worked with a framework that tries to do this, so > I've got a bit experience in that. It works remarkably well. I'd love to learn the name of the tool you used. > What we were doing, when we were using the tool, was to model the > database entities in detail as class diagrams, but for the activity > diagrams we had to keep as much technical detail out of the diagrams as > possible and abstract a lot. What does that mean? Are your activity diagrams disconnected from the Java code? > We described the broad business decisions > only and coded the detail like you've been doing it all the time: In > plain old Java. For conditionals, the framework generated a hook method > from the diagram, which we filled with life. For each activity a view > was generated by the framework, which we could customize using a UI- > designer and Java. Do you mean view as in MVC? What kind of application are we talking about here? > It's very convenient, as long as you don't try to squeeze everything > into one diagram. Obviously. > The only drawback is that you're virtually always > short of screen estate. :-) >> And btw., roundtrip tools don't help much with updating diagrams which >> are sitting in text documents. > > We've not put the diagrams onto paper. All we modelled and talked about > was stored in model-files that the system held in sync with the > software. I wasn't specifically talking about paper. Did you include diagrams in text documents (design documents) which explained the rationale of the design in a more reader friendly way? If yes, how did you deal with updating diagrams? If not, how did you convey the essence of the design to other people (new team members etc.)? Kind regards robert -- remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
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| From | Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-23 03:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2a76c72e6770632d989721@202.177.16.121> |
| In reply to | #16194 |
In article <a708e2Fch4U1@mid.individual.net>, shortcutter@googlemail.com says... > > I have professionally worked with a framework that tries to do this, so > > I've got a bit experience in that. It works remarkably well. > > I'd love to learn the name of the tool you used. It's a commercial application development framework called "TREND" by a company called "GEBIT Solutions" and I was pretty impressed! It's built from a series of Eclipse plugins. On their website they offer an analyst/requirements engineering tool, but that's barely scratching the surface of the rich framework that they use for creating applications (which can be swing client or web applications). You can build applications pretty fast using that stuff. Of course, as with every other framework in the world, you'll find things that you won't like and face some challenges, but it's still very impressive. > > What we were doing, when we were using the tool, was to model the > > database entities in detail as class diagrams, but for the activity > > diagrams we had to keep as much technical detail out of the diagrams as > > possible and abstract a lot. > > What does that mean? Are your activity diagrams disconnected from the > Java code? There are files which are kept in sync by the framework, diagram files and generated Java code. The generated Java code is annotated. It's a round trip thing: Once generated from the model, the Java code can be edited, which will reflect back into the diagrams. So you could, for example, add some attributes to your entity class and you'll see them appearing in the diagram as you save, likewise you can alter the diagram and you'll see the change appearing in the code. The activity diagrams are also backed by Java code. I don't know to which extend I'm allowed to speak about all this, there have been non disclosure agreements that I had to sign, which I don't have at hand, so please forgive me if I'm not going into too much detail here. But they've been working on this tool chain for well over a decade, and that's pretty apparent when you're using it. You'll find some valuable information on their website (German): > http://www.gebit.de/loesungen/technische-loesungen/trend-framework- develop/beschreibung.html > > We described the broad business decisions > > only and coded the detail like you've been doing it all the time: In > > plain old Java. For conditionals, the framework generated a hook method > > from the diagram, which we filled with life. For each activity a view > > was generated by the framework, which we could customize using a UI- > > designer and Java. > > Do you mean view as in MVC? What kind of application are we talking > about here? Yes, it's all MVC. I have been working on a Swing client (very large scale) and I've seen them creating a JSF-Web client using the same tools. I've also seen something based on the Eclipse platform, not entirely sure to which extend they have used their modeler for that (just had a quick chat with the developer and other things on my mind), but I think so. > Did you include diagrams in > text documents (design documents) which explained the rationale of the > design in a more reader friendly way? > If yes, how did you deal with > updating diagrams? If not, how did you convey the essence of the design > to other people (new team members etc.)? The RE-Tool that the framework vendor is selling allows to create design documents that include diagrams that are kept in sync, so an update in the diagram is reflected in the document. The tool also integrates with Eclipse and the documents as well as the diagrams can be stored in an SCM system. Here's a link (German language): > http://www.gebit.de/loesungen/technische-loesungen/trend-analyst- requirements/beschreibung.html < You might like to check out their community edition, which is free of charge. Mind you that that tool is just for documentation purposes, if you're seriously interested in the complete framework you should contact their sales rep. Their customers are quite large companies, so I doubt it will be cheap, but probably valuable. Kind regards, Wanja -- ..Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with, when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer] --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---
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| From | Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-20 03:03 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <BtednSlkoo0ijZTNnZ2dnUVZ8gSdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #16137 |
In comp.lang.java.programmer Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:41:46 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred > <leifm@dimnakorr.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who > said : > >> >>When it helps you to think and reason about the system you're developing >>and when it helps to communicate information about the system to other >>people working on it. > > I think the biggest problem comes with keeping it up to date. This is > extra work, but without it the diagrams are worse than useless. That depends what they're used _for_. Most times I use UML diagrams -- particularly UML class diagrams, which perhaps is what most developers think of when they hear UML -- it's as part of the design process either as a way to structure my own thoughts about the design, or to suggest a design to other developers in order to receive feedback. In my opinion, class diagrams doesn't have much value as long-term documentation except sometimes to explain usage patterns for an API. With Java in particular they're not even suitable for that as API documentation is done with Javadoc and it doesn't have any good support for embedding diagrams or figures. There are other UML diagrams that _do_ have value as long-term documentation, though. Component and deployment diagrams are useful, and relatively static over the lifetime of a system. The various behaviour and interaction diagrams can also be very useful long-term documentation (I personally think UML sequence diagrams is one of the better ways of describing a communication protocol.) Just don't feel you _have_ to make use of them, but apply them sparingly where they're most advantageous. -- Leif Roar Moldskred
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-20 19:46 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <5009ede0$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #16137 |
On 7/20/2012 2:29 AM, Roedy Green wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:41:46 -0500, Leif Roar Moldskred > <leifm@dimnakorr.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who > said : >> When it helps you to think and reason about the system you're developing >> and when it helps to communicate information about the system to other >> people working on it. > > I think the biggest problem comes with keeping it up to date. This is > extra work, but without it the diagrams are worse than useless. With the level of detail most often used in UML diagrams, they should not need to be updated so often. Arne
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| From | Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-07-21 18:59 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2a74fe4dc3044cb98971c@202.177.16.121> |
| In reply to | #16112 |
In article <7b5978a1-16bd-4700-acd8-b6446f5c3218
@j4g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, ramon@conexus.net says...
>
> Every time I see newfangled gizmos like "UML diagrams' (which remind
> me of the old-fashioned flowcharts, NOT the best of tools, since it
> leads to spaghetti code) I can't help but remember the saying:
>
> - "Those who know, do. Those who don't manage".
>
> I guess my question should be: Under what circumstances is advisable
> to use UML?
I find that UML class diagrams aree very good to visualize database
structures that are built from entity beans.
I also think that UML activity diagrams are a great way to visualize the
broad path the user can take through an application. By "broad path", I
mean not drawing a decision node for each "if"-statement, but rather a
more general decision node, like:
[Order form] --ok--> <order failed> --yes--> [Error page]
!--no--> [ confirm order page ]
Activity diagrams have a lot in common with flow charts, but by adding
the object flow you have a good overview which entity or value object is
passed between the different views (activities).
Kind regards,
Wanja
--
..Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down
dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to
Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with,
when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer]
--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---
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| From | R kamalakkannan <kamalakkannan.ney@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-08-02 01:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0973d120-f64c-4b08-ac7a-a05b3ae22e27@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16112 |
On Friday, July 20, 2012 1:39:16 AM UTC+5:30, Ramon F Herrera wrote: > Every time I see newfangled gizmos like "UML diagrams' (which remind > > me of the old-fashioned flowcharts, NOT the best of tools, since it > > leads to spaghetti code) I can't help but remember the saying: > > > > - "Those who know, do. Those who don't manage". > > > > I guess my question should be: Under what circumstances is advisable > > to use UML? > > > > -Ramon
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