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How to develop without an IDE?

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  How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-22 11:18 -0400
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-04-22 16:22 +0000
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:22 +0100
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:44 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 15:03 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 11:24 -0300
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:07 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:07 -0300
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:10 -0700
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-25 21:04 -0300
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:29 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:32 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-30 07:09 -0300
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:16 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:19 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 18:56 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:15 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:45 -0400
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 09:58 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:10 -0400
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:13 -0700
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:34 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:35 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:09 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:23 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:03 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-01 16:18 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:33 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:21 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:49 -0400
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:07 +0000
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:26 -0400
                                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 11:38 +0000
                                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-05-06 08:41 -0700
                                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:24 -0700
                                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:18 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:12 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:08 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 00:57 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 13:48 +0100
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:17 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 20:55 -0400
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-04-22 08:41 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 12:36 -0400
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-22 11:35 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 17:21 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 19:45 -0400
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 20:28 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-22 23:57 -0500
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 02:06 -0500
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-23 02:09 -0500
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-23 01:26 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 04:36 -0500
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-23 21:11 +0200
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:15 +0100
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:44 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 21:15 -0300
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:33 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 18:59 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:43 -0700
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:44 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-24 20:23 +0000
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:18 -0700
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:42 -0400
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-24 08:38 +0200
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:36 -0700
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:09 +0100
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-25 07:55 +0200
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:18 +0100
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:37 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 01:01 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:20 -0700
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:50 -0400
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:17 -0400
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:27 -0400
                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 11:16 -0700
                      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-29 14:33 -0400
                        Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 22:48 -0700
                          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:03 -0400
                            Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:59 -0700
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:09 -0400
                              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 11:01 -0700
                                Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:21 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 14:20 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-05-02 14:41 -0700
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:52 -0700
                                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:31 -0400
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-06 14:19 -0700
                                    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-07 11:16 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-22 10:17 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-22 19:11 +0000
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:43 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-04-22 23:32 +0100
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-23 00:33 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-04-23 10:25 -0700
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:38 +0100
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:50 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-23 16:21 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 22:09 -0300
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:53 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:12 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:16 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:14 -0700
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:11 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-29 13:21 +0200
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? JussiJ <jussij@zeusedit.com> - 2012-05-07 07:19 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:46 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:47 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:59 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:20 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 21:00 -0400
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:36 +0100
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 20:54 -0400
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:05 +0100
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:07 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:13 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:15 -0300
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:59 -0700
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 14:24 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:59 -0700
                  Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 17:19 -0700
                Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 17:12 -0700
          Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:00 -0400
            Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-04-26 02:17 +1000
              Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:24 -0400
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 10:02 -0700
    Re: How to develop without an IDE? sony.gupta32@yahoo.co.uk - 2012-08-30 02:29 -0700
      Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-08-30 19:58 +0000
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 13:16 -0700
        Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-02 14:04 -0700

Page 7 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]

#13895

Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 4/24/2012 7:36 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> Given that with mentioning any specific IDE's/editors then
>>> an editor is a subset of an IDE, then that does not make
>>> much sense..
>>
>> It can only make no sense if you believe that any statement regarding how
>> a particular text editor compares to the text editor made available by a
>> specific IDE is something which can be expressed objectively in absolute
>> terms.  It isn't.  Taste and personal preferences are, well, personal.
>> These are subjective opinions, which each of us holds, that reflect
>> nothing more than our personal tastes, preferences and even habits.
> 
> ????
> 
> There is certainly a strong element in personal preferences for
> specific tools.
> 
> But that has absolutely no relevance.
> 
> You were not talking about specific tools but about IDE's and
> text editors.
> 
> And you were talking about features provided not whether
> you liked them or not.

I talked about the features provided by some text editors and some IDEs, and 
to me some text editors provide a set of features which are invaluable and 
still up to this day can't be had with any IDE.  Surely you understand that 
the decision of whether something is better or worse than something else is 
subjective and a matter of personal opinion.  Don't you?

Then, I don't know about you, but when I express an opinion I express my own 
and no one else's, and I also do not believe I represent anyone but me.  
Don't you, or do you actually believe that when you state your opinion you 
are actually speaking for a group of people?


> Well - you brought up the discussion about features provide by IDE's
> and editors.
> 
> And we pointed out that you were wrong because editor+tools does
> not have less features than editor.

And so you admit that you got confused and in the process managed to both 
entirely miss the point and fail to read or, worse, failed to understand 
what I wrote.  Quite possibly both are related.  After all, no one but 
yourself said anything about IDEs having more or less features than editors.  
No one else made that mistake.  If you doubt this then do point out exactly 
where anyone else, particularly me, made that idiotic claim.  Don't be 
surprised if you find yourself on a wild goose chase or facing the fact that 
you failed to read something.

So, if you have a problem with silly claims then, well, just stop making 
them, and stop using your imagination as a basis for silly arguments.

 
> And the rest is just your hopeless pathetic attempts to avoid
> admitting your fault.

It looks like you don't enjoy making mistakes, and when you do you have a 
hard time admitting to them.  Resorting to name-calling doesn't help 
you,either, as it isn't a magic matra that makes all your screwups go 
magically away.  It only shows how desperate you become.

So, come back after you searched where exactly anyone else made that idiotic 
claim you invented, and then let's see who is is engaged in "hopeless 
pathetic attempts to avoid admitting" their fault.


Rui Maciel

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#14001

On 4/25/2012 7:05 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 4/24/2012 7:36 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given that with mentioning any specific IDE's/editors then
>>>> an editor is a subset of an IDE, then that does not make
>>>> much sense..
>>>
>>> It can only make no sense if you believe that any statement regarding how
>>> a particular text editor compares to the text editor made available by a
>>> specific IDE is something which can be expressed objectively in absolute
>>> terms.  It isn't.  Taste and personal preferences are, well, personal.
>>> These are subjective opinions, which each of us holds, that reflect
>>> nothing more than our personal tastes, preferences and even habits.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> There is certainly a strong element in personal preferences for
>> specific tools.
>>
>> But that has absolutely no relevance.
>>
>> You were not talking about specific tools but about IDE's and
>> text editors.
>>
>> And you were talking about features provided not whether
>> you liked them or not.
>
> I talked about the features provided by some text editors and some IDEs,

No.

You talked about IDE's in general not about some IDE's.

>                                                                      and
> to me some text editors provide a set of features which are invaluable and
> still up to this day can't be had with any IDE.

Still without any examples.

>                                                 Surely you understand that
> the decision of whether something is better or worse than something else is
> subjective and a matter of personal opinion

Don't you understand English??

Let me quote myself.

# And you were talking about features provided not whether
# you liked them or not.

Is that difficult to understand?

> Then, I don't know about you, but when I express an opinion I express my own
> and no one else's, and I also do not believe I represent anyone but me.

Nobody cares about your opinion.

We do care about whether features are present or not.


>> Well - you brought up the discussion about features provide by IDE's
>> and editors.
>>
>> And we pointed out that you were wrong because editor+tools does
>> not have less features than editor.
>
> And so you admit that you got confused and in the process managed to both
> entirely miss the point and fail to read or, worse, failed to understand
> what I wrote.  Quite possibly both are related.  After all, no one but
> yourself said anything about IDEs having more or less features than editors.

That was what you wrote.

> No one else made that mistake.

Not true. You have gotten several responses along those lines.

>                           If you doubt this then do point out exactly
> where anyone else, particularly me,

#They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
#particularly when compared with the features provided by some text
#editors.

>> And the rest is just your hopeless pathetic attempts to avoid
>> admitting your fault.
>
> It looks like you don't enjoy making mistakes, and when you do you have a
> hard time admitting to them.

That sounds as a perfect description of yourself.

>                            Resorting to name-calling doesn't help
> you,either, as it isn't a magic matra that makes all your screwups go
> magically away.  It only shows how desperate you become.

Let me quote what you wrote in another post:

#So, you either are a functional illiterate or a troll.

You were saying what?

Arne

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#13856

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:38:47 +0100, Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
>They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects, 
>particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.

     I am using Dreamweaver for Web development.  Its editor forces
tabs into files and does not have a current column indicator.  Both
lacks are antipathetic to how I code.   When I know enough, I am very
likely to switch to something else.
  
>Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by 
>hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.

     I like the idea of an automated build, but I would want the
option of handling it myself.  The problem with too much of this
automation is that one has to really dig to find out how to do it
without the IDE.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#13862

On 12-04-24 01:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:38:47 +0100, Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>
>>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>>
>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects, 
>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
> 
>      I am using Dreamweaver for Web development.  Its editor forces
> tabs into files and does not have a current column indicator.  Both
> lacks are antipathetic to how I code.   When I know enough, I am very
> likely to switch to something else.
>   
>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by 
>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
> 
>      I like the idea of an automated build, but I would want the
> option of handling it myself.  The problem with too much of this
> automation is that one has to really dig to find out how to do it
> without the IDE.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko

The funny thing is, it's not such a big deal to build, package and
deploy even complicated-looking projects to typical Java EE app servers
on the command line. The information - I find - is readily available.
It's a useful exercise to do this every so often - no Ant, no IDE,
nothing except command line - so that you have a good feel for what your
IDE is doing under the hood. This includes all configuration and
operation of the app server as well.

AHS
-- 
A fly was very close to being called a "land," cause that's what they do
half the time.
-- Mitch Hedberg

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#13864

On 4/24/2012 10:15 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 12-04-24 01:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:38:47 +0100, Rui Maciel<rui.maciel@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>>>
>>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
>>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
>>
>>       I am using Dreamweaver for Web development.  Its editor forces
>> tabs into files and does not have a current column indicator.  Both
>> lacks are antipathetic to how I code.   When I know enough, I am very
>> likely to switch to something else.
>>
>>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by
>>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
>>
>>       I like the idea of an automated build, but I would want the
>> option of handling it myself.  The problem with too much of this
>> automation is that one has to really dig to find out how to do it
>> without the IDE.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Gene Wirchenko
>
> The funny thing is, it's not such a big deal to build, package and
> deploy even complicated-looking projects to typical Java EE app servers
> on the command line. The information - I find - is readily available.
> It's a useful exercise to do this every so often - no Ant, no IDE,
> nothing except command line - so that you have a good feel for what your
> IDE is doing under the hood. This includes all configuration and
> operation of the app server as well.
>

personally, I would be more happy with many IDEs (or, at least leaving 
them in control of the "project" and "build process"), if the build 
process were itself readily available and an editable part of the project.

after all, a person builds the GUI, they get code, and they can edit the 
code if they need to.

how much control do they have over, say, which tools are run, or the 
command-lines passed to the tools?...

not a whole lot.

if one is lucky, it is partly available in some arcane-looking set of 
dialog boxes off in a menu somewhere, and in others, it is nowhere to be 
found.


meanwhile, if manually building a project, it is fairly easy to add 
custom tools or build-targets to the process (assuming the person knows 
and understands the process), ...


now, why is it this way?...

OTOH, some fancier text editors, end up sort of resembling an IDE, but 
generally without project-management features or integrated debugger or 
profiler support (kind of a loss).


or such...

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#13869

On 4/24/2012 12:59 PM, BGB wrote:
>
> personally, I would be more happy with many IDEs (or, at least leaving
> them in control of the "project" and "build process"), if the build
> process were itself readily available and an editable part of the project.


Just FYI: NetBeans actually generates an ant build file and uses it 
exclusively to build projects.  Anytime you want to change the internals 
of how NetBeans builds, just edit the build.xml file.

I'd recommend checking the project's Properties first, but if you don't 
find what you need there, a little work with the build script will fix 
things right up.

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#13872

markspace wrote:
> BGB wrote:
> > personally, I would be more happy with many IDEs (or, at least leaving
> > them in control of the "project" and "build process"), if the build
> > process were itself readily available and an editable part of the project.
> 
> Just FYI: NetBeans actually generates an ant build file and uses it 
> exclusively to build projects.  Anytime you want to change the internals 
> of how NetBeans builds, just edit the build.xml file.

Uh-huh. Have you tried this yourself?

In the first place, you don't edit the build.xml but the ancillary build file that build.xml incorporates.

In the second place, the generated build script is a tour de force, but verbose and heavy. It is likely more than you'd hand-craft. I usually eschew the NetBeans build.xml as too IDE-specific, and create one from first principles. I recommend that practice.

> I'd recommend checking the project's Properties first, but if you don't 
> find what you need there, a little work with the build script will fix 
> things right up.

A "little" work indeed - seriously, have you tried this?

-- 
Lew

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#13880

On 4/24/2012 2:59 PM, Lew wrote:

> In the first place, you don't edit the build.xml but the ancillary
> build file that build.xml incorporates.
>

> A "little" work indeed - seriously, have you tried this?
>

I've added small changes to a NetBeans build file.  I've never attempted 
large or wholesale changes.

I just double checked, and it's the other way around:  The main 
build.xml file is the one you edit.  It's empty, except for the project 
header and an include of the generated targets (one line), and a really 
long comment explaining the targets that NetBeans uses to build your 
program.

The trick is to get the right dependency on the right target.  I've 
found that the -pre and -post targets should be ignored.  Those never 
seem to do anything useful.  Just base your own stuff on the real 
targets, and it all builds normally.

If you're doing large changes, I can see that it might be unworkable. 
You're probably better off using the "free form" NetBeans project type, 
and just managing the build file entirely yourself.  But if you're 
adding small bits to the existing paths or other configuration, or 
you're adding small build targets, it's easy.

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#13879

On 4/24/2012 2:24 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 4/24/2012 12:59 PM, BGB wrote:
>>
>> personally, I would be more happy with many IDEs (or, at least leaving
>> them in control of the "project" and "build process"), if the build
>> process were itself readily available and an editable part of the
>> project.
>
>
> Just FYI: NetBeans actually generates an ant build file and uses it
> exclusively to build projects. Anytime you want to change the internals
> of how NetBeans builds, just edit the build.xml file.
>
> I'd recommend checking the project's Properties first, but if you don't
> find what you need there, a little work with the build script will fix
> things right up.
>

can't really claim to have used NetBeans.

mostly, I was writing from experience with Visual Studio and Eclipse, 
which are not exactly all that friendly IME to a user-customizable build 
process...

yes, there are some workarounds, but still...

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#13882

On 4/24/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:38:47 +0100, Rui Maciel<rui.maciel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>>
>> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
>> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
>
>       I am using Dreamweaver for Web development.  Its editor forces
> tabs into files and does not have a current column indicator.  Both
> lacks are antipathetic to how I code.   When I know enough, I am very
> likely to switch to something else.

I would be tempted to consider Dreamweaver a design tool and not an IDE.

>> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by
>> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
>
>       I like the idea of an automated build, but I would want the
> option of handling it myself.  The problem with too much of this
> automation is that one has to really dig to find out how to do it
> without the IDE.

I can not think of one widely used IDE that does not work
with command line build tools (typical ant for Java IDE's).

Arne

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#13907

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

>I would be tempted to consider Dreamweaver a design tool and not an IDE.

Why?

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#13994

On 4/25/2012 12:17 PM, Gordon Levi wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>> I would be tempted to consider Dreamweaver a design tool and not an IDE.
>
> Why?

http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver.html

<quote>
What is Dreamweaver?

Adobe® Dreamweaver® CS6 web design software provides an intuitive visual 
interface for making and editing HTML websites and mobile apps. Use 
fluid grid layout designed for cross-platform compatibility to create 
adaptive layouts. Review designs with Multiscreen Preview before publishing.
</quote>

:-)

Arne

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#13860

On 4/23/2012 3:38 PM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>
>> Why not use an IDE though? They provide so much!
>
> They also tend to be inferior in a considerable number of aspects,
> particularly when compared with the features provided by some text editors.
> Between being forced to stick with an IDE and managing the build process by
> hand, the latter option sounds a lot better.
>

yeah, there are a few problems IMO with many IDEs:
trying to manage and automate too much of the process;
not being terribly flexible for allowing the developer to do what *they* 
want regarding the build.

ultimately, it largely renders an IDE a glorified text editor and 
debugging interface, with much more building-related tasks being handled 
on the command-line.

sadly, this seems to be a common problem with many sorts of tools.

or such...

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#18424

what about an xml editor, try Liquid XML Editor (http://www.liquid-technologies.com/xml-editor.aspx)

On Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:15:30 PM UTC+1, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Is it possible to set up a Java project so that it can be built without 
> 
> relying on an IDE?  If it is, where can I find any information on how to set 
> 
> up this sort of project?  
> 
> 
> 
> Bonus points if it's possible to pull this off by writing a single makefile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Rui Maciel

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#18444

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 02:29:00 -0700, sony.gupta32 wrote:

> what about an xml editor, try Liquid XML Editor
> (http://www.liquid-technologies.com/xml-editor.aspx)
> 
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:15:30 PM UTC+1, Rui Maciel wrote:
>> Is it possible to set up a Java project so that it can be built without
>> 
>> relying on an IDE?  If it is, where can I find any information on how
>> to set
>> 
>> up this sort of project?
>>  
>> Bonus points if it's possible to pull this off by writing a single
>> makefile.
>> 
Don't use make - ant is better for Java and one control file (build.xml) 
can easily handle several non-nested package structures as well as jarfile 
builds and javadocs output.

Everything else can be handled via your favourite text editor (java 
source, regression test scripts and test data.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#18446

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> sony.gupta32 wrote:
>> what about an xml editor, try Liquid XML Editor
>> (http://www.liquid-technologies.com/xml-editor.aspx)
>> Rui Maciel wrote:
>>> Is it possible to set up a Java project so that it can be built without
>>> relying on an IDE?  If it is, where can I find any information on how
>>> to set up this sort of project?

Just about any Java tutorial, and also on the Ant website.

>>> Bonus points if it's possible to pull this off by writing a single
>>> makefile.

Ewww! Makefiles don't go well with Java. 

> Don't use make - ant is better for Java and one control file (build.xml) 
> can easily handle several non-nested package structures as well as jarfile 
> builds and javadocs output.

And with a little more difficulty can handle just about everything else related 
to builds and kicking off testing.

> Everything else can be handled via your favourite text editor (java 
> source, regression test scripts and test data.

Well, now, "handled" is a loose term here.

Tools like Jenkins/Hudson, Ant, IDEs and various performance and 
functional test scaffolds exist for valid reasons.

The OP is right to seek command-line, or rather, command-script 
knowledge. All the Java IDEs recognize Ant build.xml files and can 
work well with Ant-based build/deployment protocols. It is 
important that one does not introduce dependencies on the IDE 
itself in those protocols. Then all sorts of standard tools, and 
multiple versions of such, will work with the project. 

One more thing about Ant. If you really can't do what you want 
in it, yet, you can choose to write new Ant tasks in Java and fold 
them into your process.

-- 
Lew

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#18513

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:58:06 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
<martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>Everything else can be handled via your favourite text editor (java 
>source, regression test scripts and test data.
 I used to use SlickEdit for this.  You need to install  the JDK
see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdk.html
You make macros to do common editing tasks.

Use ant for building.  I generate my ant scripts with a stomp cookie
cutter program. This mean I can add a project with just a few lines.
For example, last night I noticed I had been signing only the main jar
for JWS. I changed a few lines, and all my ant scripts were updated.

But IDEs are so much more powerful in terms of navigation, tracing,
reformatting.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light,
but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
~ Max Planck 1858-04-23 1947-10-04 

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