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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #5724 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Alex J <vstrength@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2011-06-28 02:29 -0700 |
| Last post | 2011-07-22 10:20 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 87 — 21 participants |
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Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Alex J <vstrength@gmail.com> - 2011-06-28 02:29 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 07:33 -0400
OT "sic" (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-06-28 15:56 +0000
Re: OT "sic" (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 12:19 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-06-28 18:41 +0200
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 13:10 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-06-28 19:53 +0200
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 14:13 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-28 14:23 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 14:33 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-28 14:52 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 16:20 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-29 00:53 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-29 01:04 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-29 01:43 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-28 11:42 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-28 14:54 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-28 12:34 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? markspace <-@.> - 2011-06-28 13:20 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-28 13:44 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-29 01:05 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 16:21 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-29 01:06 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-28 14:30 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-29 18:56 +0200
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-28 13:43 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-06-28 20:43 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-28 21:14 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-06-29 01:12 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 18:28 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-07-02 00:19 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-07-01 19:05 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-07-02 00:26 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-04 09:39 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-07-05 02:11 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Alex J <vstrength@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 16:56 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-07-06 00:57 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-07-06 05:55 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Alex Shabanov <avshabanov@gmail.com> - 2011-08-02 05:05 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-06-28 14:40 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-29 19:15 +0200
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-30 23:04 +0100
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-06-30 18:29 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-30 17:05 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-06-30 20:17 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-07-01 21:22 +0100
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-07-01 21:40 +0100
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-01 18:08 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 12:15 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-05 15:30 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 21:10 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 22:08 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-06 05:57 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 17:07 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-07 04:08 +1000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 19:09 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-07 09:26 +1000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-06 20:25 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 19:37 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 19:35 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-07 14:34 -0700
OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 17:19 +0000
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-09 05:41 +1000
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 19:58 +0000
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) lewbloch <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 13:45 -0700
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-10 01:50 -0400
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:15 +0000
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-10 18:38 -0400
Re: OT names/nyms/etc. (was Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?) KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-09 00:29 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-09 00:26 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-06 20:05 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-07 10:24 +1000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-06 21:52 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> - 2011-07-07 12:43 +1000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> - 2011-07-06 23:00 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-21 20:27 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-21 20:30 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Henderson <h1@g1.f1> - 2011-07-22 00:20 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-22 10:17 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-22 09:30 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-22 09:45 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-22 14:53 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2011-07-22 04:39 +0000
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-22 10:19 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-21 20:33 -0400
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-21 21:08 -0700
Re: Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-07-22 10:20 -0400
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| From | Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-06-29 19:15 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <9714t7Fu2nU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5724 |
On 28.06.2011 19:33, Stefan Ram wrote: > http://www.trevorpounds.com/blog/?p=351 I have doubts about the viability of the alternatives suggested in that article. I commented I don't think the interface is a proper solution. Reason is that you can pass in a lockless instance of class Foo which implements this interface anywhere where Object is allowed. This means that you must check at runtime whether the instance is lockable or not. That might introduce significant overhead for applications which frequently synchronize. A better way I can think of off the top of my head would be a superclass of Object, but that would break in various other ways (e.g. because suddenly Object.class.getSuperclass() would return a non null value which breaks the existing contract). This leaves us with data-only type. But this would dramatically change the type system, namely you need two different types of references. This might not be a big deal for the compiler but it may make GC much more complex because now there is no longer a uniform object type on the heap. GC is complex enough in modern JVMs so this could be a significant burden. Kind regards robert -- remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
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| From | Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-06-30 23:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <alpine.DEB.2.00.1106302251380.3024@urchin.earth.li> |
| In reply to | #5724 |
On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Alex J wrote: > I'm curious why Java designers once decided to allow every object to be > lockable (i.e. allow using lock on those). I know, that out of such a > design decision every Java object contain lock index, i.e. new Object() > results in allocation of at least 8 bytes where 4 bytes is object index > and 4 bytes is lock index on 32- bit JVM. That's not quite right. In the olden days, it's true that every object header contained room for a lock pointer - but back then, that meant that every header was *three* words (12 bytes), not two. Two words were needed for the header (one for a vtable pointer, one for various other things), and the third was for the lock. What happened then was that a very clever chap called David Bacon, who worked for IBM, invented a thing called a thin lock: http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers.html#Bacon98Thin Which was subsequently improved by another clever chap called Tamiya Onodera into a thing called a tasuki lock, which you don't hear so much about. The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot is that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. Some even fancier footwork means that if only one thread locks the object at a time (a very common pattern), then a lock doesn't even need to be allocated. > The better decision, IMHO, would be to introduce lock/wait mechanics for > only, say, the Lockable descendants. I agree with this, actually. There might be some small performance improvement, but it would also make the locking behaviour of code more explicit, and so clearer. tom -- Why did one straw break the camel's back? Here's the secret: the million other straws underneath it - it's all mathematics. -- Mos Def
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-06-30 18:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iuitc4$etp$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5799 |
On 30/06/2011 6:04 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > What happened then was that a very clever chap called David Bacon, who > worked for IBM, invented a thing called a thin lock: > > http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers.html#Bacon98Thin > > Which was subsequently improved by another clever chap called Tamiya > Onodera into a thing called a tasuki lock, which you don't hear so much > about. Are you sure that last one was a "chap"? "Tamiya" sounds rather feminine to me. > The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot is > that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock > pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only > when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the > object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header > remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. Such as? I can think of only one possibility that could be even close to efficient: maintain an IdentityHashMap<Object,Lock> somewhere under the hood.
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| From | Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-06-30 17:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <Ytqdna8hlefZkpDTnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #5801 |
On 6/30/2011 3:29 PM, KitKat wrote: > On 30/06/2011 6:04 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: ... >> The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot is >> that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock >> pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only >> when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the >> object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header >> remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. > > Such as? I can think of only one possibility that could be even close to > efficient: maintain an IdentityHashMap<Object,Lock> somewhere under the > hood. The obvious alternative is the make one of the existing words dual purpose, either directly containing its data or containing an index to a structure containing both the lock and the original use of the word. That does require, in effect, a spare bit to indicate which mode the object is in. Patricia
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-06-30 20:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iuj3lv$qda$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5803 |
On 30/06/2011 8:05 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > On 6/30/2011 3:29 PM, KitKat wrote: >> On 30/06/2011 6:04 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > ... >>> The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot is >>> that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock >>> pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only >>> when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the >>> object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header >>> remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. >> >> Such as? I can think of only one possibility that could be even close to >> efficient: maintain an IdentityHashMap<Object,Lock> somewhere under the >> hood. > > The obvious alternative is the make one of the existing words dual > purpose, either directly containing its data or containing an index to a > structure containing both the lock and the original use of the word. > That does require, in effect, a spare bit to indicate which mode the > object is in. Yeah, that could work if you can spare a bit from the non-lock stuff in the other original two words of object header. The above assumed that all the bits in the other two words were already spoken for. But if not, your suggestion fits well the phrase "thin lock" since the lock is essentially only 1 bit wide for most objects.
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| From | Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-01 21:22 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107012119350.21859@urchin.earth.li> |
| In reply to | #5804 |
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, KitKat wrote: > On 30/06/2011 8:05 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: >> On 6/30/2011 3:29 PM, KitKat wrote: >>> On 30/06/2011 6:04 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: >> ... >>>> The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot is >>>> that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock >>>> pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only >>>> when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the >>>> object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header >>>> remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. >>> >>> Such as? I can think of only one possibility that could be even close to >>> efficient: maintain an IdentityHashMap<Object,Lock> somewhere under the >>> hood. >> >> The obvious alternative is the make one of the existing words dual >> purpose, either directly containing its data or containing an index to a >> structure containing both the lock and the original use of the word. >> That does require, in effect, a spare bit to indicate which mode the >> object is in. > > Yeah, that could work if you can spare a bit from the non-lock stuff in the > other original two words of object header. > > The above assumed that all the bits in the other two words were already > spoken for. But if not, your suggestion fits well the phrase "thin lock" > since the lock is essentially only 1 bit wide for most objects. That is indeed pretty much exactly what a thin lock is. tom -- The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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| From | Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-01 21:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107012123070.21859@urchin.earth.li> |
| In reply to | #5801 |
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, KitKat wrote: > On 30/06/2011 6:04 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: >> What happened then was that a very clever chap called David Bacon, who >> worked for IBM, invented a thing called a thin lock: >> >> http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers.html#Bacon98Thin >> >> Which was subsequently improved by another clever chap called Tamiya >> Onodera into a thing called a tasuki lock, which you don't hear so much >> about. > > Are you sure that last one was a "chap"? "Tamiya" sounds rather feminine to > me. Perhaps - and a quick google reveals that it is a girl's name in Hebrew. However, in Japanese, i believe it's a family name, and that Tamiya Onodera is Dr Tamiya's name written in the normal Japanese order, putting his family name first. Although i could be wrong. >> The details are described quite clearly in the papers, but the upshot >> is that an object is created with neither a lock nor a slot for a lock >> pointer (and so only a two-word header), and the lock is allocated only >> when needed, and then wired in. Some fancy footwork means that the >> object doesn't need to grow a pointer when this happens; the header >> remains two words, at the expense of some slight awkwardness elsewhere. > > Such as? The object's identity hash is shuffled between the object and its lock according to whether it has an expanded lock or not. > I can think of only one possibility that could be even close to > efficient: maintain an IdentityHashMap<Object,Lock> somewhere under the > hood. That might be memory-efficient, but it would not be at all time-efficient, as it would require a map lookup to lock an object. Resizing the hash would be an interesting exercise, too. Actually, i think early JVMs (1.1 era, IIRC, perhaps even 1.0) used something a bit like this; they didn't use the identity hash, but back then the garbage collector was non-moving, so they could use addresses as keys, and there was a global lock table somewhere. I don't know how it handled resizing. Badly, i expect. tom -- The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-01 18:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iulgh3$7mq$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5812 |
On 01/07/2011 4:40 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, KitKat wrote: > >> Are you sure that last one was a "chap"? "Tamiya" sounds rather >> feminine to me. > > Perhaps - and a quick google reveals that it is a girl's name in Hebrew. > However, in Japanese, i believe it's a family name, and that Tamiya > Onodera is Dr Tamiya's name written in the normal Japanese order, > putting his family name first. Although i could be wrong. ??? Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > The object's identity hash is shuffled between the object and its lock > according to whether it has an expanded lock or not. That would work, if that's what the second word in the object header normally is. Assuming it's the heap address at time of creation, and objects are aligned on word boundaries, the two least order bits of the identity hash are going to be zero, so you can use those bits for something else and mask them off to get the hash. On the other hand, that suggests a way to make object headers of only *one* word. Consider: how likely are we to have four billion vtables in a running 32-bit JVM? Let alone Long.MAX_VALUE - Long.MIN_VALUE + 1 in a 64-bit one? Reserve a low chunk of the address space (and call it part of permgen?) for vtables and your vtable pointers get quite short. The vtable pointer plus a few bits of the object's initial address would still make a pretty decent identity hash for collections with heterogeneous keys; homogeneous keys, in my experience, are usually value objects with overridden hashCode such as Strings and you can make the initial-address-bits (and the thin lock bit) the low order bits. Shift right one bit to lose the lock bit and have the hash; shift right n bits for some fairly small n to get the vtable pointer. Vtable lookup is a tiny bit slower due to a test of the lock bit plus one added shift instruction on each lookup, but the critical performance points tend to get JITted into direct calls or branch-predictable is-it-a-Foo? jump-or-normal-vtable-lookup choices. And the vast majority of production Java code is I/O bound anyway. Well, except when the object needs a fat lock. Then the whole word becomes a pointer to a structure that points to the vtable and contains the lock and identity hash. Now vtable lookup has an added indirection. But the bottleneck with such objects will usually be contention for the lock itself, not CPU cycles. > That might be memory-efficient, but it would not be at all > time-efficient, as it would require a map lookup to lock an object. Map lookups are O(1) and a low level implementation in C built into the JVM would boil down to masking and shifting the hash and then a pointer addition and dereference, only needed when you wanted to lock or unlock an object -- and again, the time spent on this will be dwarfed by the time spent in contention for the lock anyway, fairly often. Branch prediction and pipelining might help in the case of high-CPU areas that lock an object with low contention, in that some of the work might proceed in parallel with lock acquisition in the absence of contention (though, only as far as work that can be done in cache or registers, since the lock must be held prior to any memory reads or writes in the guarded object, and on initial acquisition failure that work may have to be repeated later on acquisitoon).
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-05 12:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <iuvo57$e5i$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5814 |
On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: > On 01/07/2011 4:40 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: >> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, KitKat wrote: >> >>> Are you sure that last one was a "chap"? "Tamiya" sounds rather >>> feminine to me. >> >> Perhaps - and a quick google reveals that it is a girl's name in Hebrew. >> However, in Japanese, i believe it's a family name, and that Tamiya >> Onodera is Dr Tamiya's name written in the normal Japanese order, >> putting his family name first. Although i could be wrong. > > ??? > > Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > grr... the name is not latin-based, not everything that ends in 'a' is female. not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or something, which would be a bit suspect. "anata wa des-ka?" "chibi-chibi hitomi wa deeesuuu!" (meanwhile doing an imbalanced stance). as other people look with a solidly "WTF?" expression upon hearing this. another person stands up, puts his hands to his face, and a background voice exclaims "shaaku!" (IOW: "shock!"). >> The object's identity hash is shuffled between the object and its lock >> according to whether it has an expanded lock or not. > > That would work, if that's what the second word in the object header > normally is. Assuming it's the heap address at time of creation, and > objects are aligned on word boundaries, the two least order bits of the > identity hash are going to be zero, so you can use those bits for > something else and mask them off to get the hash. > > On the other hand, that suggests a way to make object headers of only > *one* word. > > Consider: how likely are we to have four billion vtables in a running > 32-bit JVM? Let alone Long.MAX_VALUE - Long.MIN_VALUE + 1 in a 64-bit one? > well, that is the cost of full pointers probably. everything is addressable. storing type-IDs as an id-number can also work, then one fetches the vtable/... via an array index. a downside though is that this would have a potential performance impact, as additional operations are now needed to access the vtable. or, one can reserve a chunk of memory (wherever it is) and subtract out the address. then one can re-add the relative address to the base address. say, a 64-bit base address known to the VM, and only a 32-bit relative address is stored in the object (possibly shifted right 3 bits with the top-3 used for the lock). in x86-64, this can be done mostly with a single instruction, say: lea rcx, [rbx+rax*8] or, say, one calls a method (rdx=object, rbx=magic base pointer): mov eax, [rdx] ;fetch vtable word from object mov ecx, [rbx+rax*8+72] ;access vtable entry at offset 72 lea r8, [rbx+rcx] ;add method address to base call r8 ;call method > Reserve a low chunk of the address space (and call it part of permgen?) > for vtables and your vtable pointers get quite short. The vtable pointer > plus a few bits of the object's initial address would still make a > pretty decent identity hash for collections with heterogeneous keys; > homogeneous keys, in my experience, are usually value objects with > overridden hashCode such as Strings and you can make the > initial-address-bits (and the thin lock bit) the low order bits. Shift > right one bit to lose the lock bit and have the hash; shift right n bits > for some fairly small n to get the vtable pointer. Vtable lookup is a > tiny bit slower due to a test of the lock bit plus one added shift > instruction on each lookup, but the critical performance points tend to > get JITted into direct calls or branch-predictable is-it-a-Foo? > jump-or-normal-vtable-lookup choices. And the vast majority of > production Java code is I/O bound anyway. > > Well, except when the object needs a fat lock. Then the whole word > becomes a pointer to a structure that points to the vtable and contains > the lock and identity hash. Now vtable lookup has an added indirection. > But the bottleneck with such objects will usually be contention for the > lock itself, not CPU cycles. > >> That might be memory-efficient, but it would not be at all >> time-efficient, as it would require a map lookup to lock an object. > > Map lookups are O(1) and a low level implementation in C built into the > JVM would boil down to masking and shifting the hash and then a pointer > addition and dereference, only needed when you wanted to lock or unlock > an object -- and again, the time spent on this will be dwarfed by the > time spent in contention for the lock anyway, fairly often. Branch > prediction and pipelining might help in the case of high-CPU areas that > lock an object with low contention, in that some of the work might > proceed in parallel with lock acquisition in the absence of contention > (though, only as far as work that can be done in cache or registers, > since the lock must be held prior to any memory reads or writes in the > guarded object, and on initial acquisition failure that work may have to > be repeated later on acquisitoon). yep. a table need not be all that expensive. in my VM at least, interface method dispatch is itself done via the use of a hash table (as well as using a table for any object locking). actually, a variant of the relative-address scheme is used as well on x86-64, but in this case more due to the x86-64 ISA generally using 32-bit offsets for everything (calls/jumps/... are limited to 32-bits unless one wants to use GPRs to hold the temporary addresses, meaning it is much more efficient to try to have most of ones' JITted code/data be within a +-2GB window). in this case, calls outside of this window are generally handled via trampolines within the window. in effect, this window forms an "executable heap". granted, currently the whole region is read/write/execute, where I guess on some systems SELinux may make a problem for this, but I have yet to address this (seems to work fine on my systems... mostly tested with Fedora x86-64). (note: I also target Win64 and Win32 as well, with Win64 being done in roughly the same way, and all this being N/A to Win32). sadly, the region currently uses manual-MM. the GC can scan the region for references, but code/data/bss sections are not automatically reclaimed, as I found out after initial implementation that this would create serious implementation problems, and so instead opted with using different executable memory for GCed code, as well as it having to follow special rules, ... current setup: 4GB RWX (combined code/data/bss, allocation starts from the middle and follows an even/odd "spiral" pattern). theoretically, one would have to double-map the code-heap in this case, say: 2GB RX (code/rodata), 2GB RW (data/bss), 2GB RW (alias for code-heap) or: 2GB RX (code/rodata), 2GB RW (data/bss, alias to first region) presumably, the standard JVM does something similar internally?... in the hypothetical object situation, this region would also be used for object vtables/... as well (but, as given before, would additionally require a region-base pointer, that or use relative addresses, which have their own complexities, and require "movsx rax, dword [...]" instructions). or such...
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-05 15:30 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5865 |
On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: > On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: >> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > > grr... the name is not latin-based, What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? > not everything that ends in 'a' is female. No, just the names that do. > not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or > something, which would be a bit suspect. Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. > "anata wa des-ka?" > "chibi-chibi hitomi wa deeesuuu!" (meanwhile doing an imbalanced stance). What does your public drunkenness have to do with Java, BGB? > as other people look with a solidly "WTF?" expression upon hearing this. > > another person stands up, puts his hands to his face, and a background > voice exclaims "shaaku!" (IOW: "shock!"). What does your hallucination have to do with Java, BGB? > storing type-IDs as an id-number can also work, then one fetches the > vtable/... via an array index. a downside though is that this would have > a potential performance impact, as additional operations are now needed > to access the vtable. Even the other suggestion involved a shift and mask, as well as a prior bit-test and branch in case of a thick lock in which event the vtable was one more indirection away, though branch prediction would take care of the latter handily for every method invocation not called inside of a critical section. > or, one can reserve a chunk of memory (wherever it is) and subtract out > the address. then one can re-add the relative address to the base address. Doubles heap size, if you're suggesting what it sounds like you're suggesting. > say, a 64-bit base address known to the VM, and only a 32-bit relative > address is stored in the object (possibly shifted right 3 bits with the > top-3 used for the lock). Limits the heap to what the limit would be in a 32-bit VM.
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-05 21:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <97hctfFa1jU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5866 |
In article <iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: > > On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: > >> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > > > > grr... the name is not latin-based, > > What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one who brought that up? > > not everything that ends in 'a' is female. > > No, just the names that do. I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under "Akira Endo" for two examples. > > not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or > > something, which would be a bit suspect. > > Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. In Japanese? > > "anata wa des-ka?" > > "chibi-chibi hitomi wa deeesuuu!" (meanwhile doing an imbalanced stance). > > What does your public drunkenness have to do with Java, BGB? > > > as other people look with a solidly "WTF?" expression upon hearing this. > > > > another person stands up, puts his hands to his face, and a background > > voice exclaims "shaaku!" (IOW: "shock!"). > > What does your hallucination have to do with Java, BGB? This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar .... [ snip ] -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-05 22:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <iv0qsc$r5a$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5872 |
On 7/5/2011 2:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: >> On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: >>> On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: >>>> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. >>> >>> grr... the name is not latin-based, >> >> What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? > > About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one > who brought that up? > yep. the rule: ends in 'a' -> feminine; ends in 'o' -> masculine; ... is primarily associated with latin-derived languages, but the pattern has spread in large part to many European languages. however, much outside this space (such as in Asian languages), and the rule falls on its face. unless one knows the names, there is little way to know whether it is a male name or a female name. "sounds male" or "sounds female" is not an accurate measure, as it more reflects on ones' source language or source culture than what is actually the case. >>> not everything that ends in 'a' is female. >> >> No, just the names that do. > > I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under > "Akira Endo" for two examples. > yep. Japanese doesn't really follow the same rules. >> > not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or >>> something, which would be a bit suspect. >> >> Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. > > In Japanese? > at least partly true of Japanese, as many female names end in 'i', especially 'mi' and 'ni'. for example "Hitomi" or "Kazumi" (female) vs "Kamina" or "Tougusa" (male). but, then, "Kagura" is a female name and "Takumi" is male. >>> "anata wa des-ka?" >>> "chibi-chibi hitomi wa deeesuuu!" (meanwhile doing an imbalanced stance). >> >> What does your public drunkenness have to do with Java, BGB? >> >>> as other people look with a solidly "WTF?" expression upon hearing this. >>> >>> another person stands up, puts his hands to his face, and a background >>> voice exclaims "shaaku!" (IOW: "shock!"). >> >> What does your hallucination have to do with Java, BGB? > > This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar .... > this was all itself partial references to Japanese culture. basically, if an adult male character has a name and does things stereotypical of a schoolgirl-type character. also a character doing exaggerated expressions as a narrator announces it their expressions. basically, the loud-mouth interjecting narrator which ruins nearly any chance of "subtlety" in the scene by overtly describing the events taking place on screen, or directly explaining the plot to the audience... this is in contrast to the narrator in more western shows which usually has a much narrower role, such as describing events being recalled from the past or similar, and more often narrators are absent altogether for shows not taking place as part of someones' memory. also the narrator is usually an older version of one of the characters on-screen, rather than some unnammed 3rd party or "omnipresent voice" (who comments both in scenes involving both the protagonists and antagonists), or who comments in real-time (similar to an announcer or sports commentator). or such...
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-06 05:57 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iv1biu$r22$2@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5872 |
On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: >> On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: >>> On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: >>>> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. >>> >>> grr... the name is not latin-based, >> >> What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? > > About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one > who brought that up? Actually, Tom Anderson was the one who prompted it by posting a feminine-sounding name and following it up with male pronouns. >>> not everything that ends in 'a' is female. >> >> No, just the names that do. > > I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under > "Akira Endo" for two examples. ??? >>> not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or >>> something, which would be a bit suspect. >> >> Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. > > In Japanese? In general. > This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar .... Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly understandable or, apparently, relevant.
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-06 17:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <97jj30Fr6pU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5890 |
In article <iv1biu$r22$2@speranza.aioe.org>, KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > >> On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: > >>> On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: > >>>> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > >>> > >>> grr... the name is not latin-based, > >> > >> What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? > > > > About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one > > who brought that up? > > Actually, Tom Anderson was the one who prompted it by posting a > feminine-sounding name and following it up with male pronouns. Perhaps correctly, and you could have resisted .... <shrug> > >>> not everything that ends in 'a' is female. > >> > >> No, just the names that do. > > > > I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under > > "Akira Endo" for two examples. > > ??? I don't know what you're asking here -- perhaps what I mean by "two examples"? If I go to the main Wikipedia page and do a search on "Akira Endo" I get a page that lists two people named Akira Endo (a biochemist and a conductor), and the articles about of them indicate that both are male. What do you get? Did you want URLs? (I looked up that name because I vaguely remembered the conductor. I didn't know about the biochemist, but perhaps it's not an uncommon name in Japan.) > >>> not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or > >>> something, which would be a bit suspect. > >> > >> Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. > > > > In Japanese? > > In general. What makes you think this rule is universal, when the one about names ending in 'a' or 'o' isn't? > > This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar .... > > Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that > posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be > amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly > understandable or, apparently, relevant. "We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that. I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so will try not to reply further. -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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| From | Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-07 04:08 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <4e14a510$0$6450$c3e8da3$b1356c67@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #5912 |
blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> wrote: >In article <iv1biu$r22$2@speranza.aioe.org>, >KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: >> On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >> > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, >> > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: >> On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >> > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, >> > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: >> >> On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: >> >>> On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: >> >>>> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. >> >>> >> >>> grr... the name is not latin-based, >> >> >> >> What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? >> > >> > About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one >> > who brought that up? >> >> Actually, Tom Anderson was the one who prompted it by posting a >> feminine-sounding name and following it up with male pronouns. > >Perhaps correctly, and you could have resisted .... <shrug> > >> >>> not everything that ends in 'a' is female. >> >> >> >> No, just the names that do. >> > >> > I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under >> > "Akira Endo" for two examples. >> >> ??? > >I don't know what you're asking here -- perhaps what I mean by "two >examples"? If I go to the main Wikipedia page and do a search on >"Akira Endo" I get a page that lists two people named Akira Endo >(a biochemist and a conductor), and the articles about of them >indicate that both are male. What do you get? Did you want URLs? > >(I looked up that name because I vaguely remembered the conductor. >I didn't know about the biochemist, but perhaps it's not an uncommon >name in Japan.) > >> >>> not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or >> >>> something, which would be a bit suspect. >> >> >> >> Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine. >> > >> > In Japanese? >> >> In general. > >What makes you think this rule is universal, when the one about >names ending in 'a' or 'o' isn't? > >> > This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar .... >> >> Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that >> posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be >> amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly >> understandable or, apparently, relevant. > >"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts >of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to >something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being >of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though >BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that. >I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think >this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so >will try not to reply further. As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an extensive passive record of Usenet contribution. [otoh] Paul Derbyshire (KitKat) cannot keep the same sock for more than brief series of posts. It is one of his trademarks. Another is never will he provide more than bluster and that verbose hyperbole he is well known for. "All talk no substance" is our Paul :-/ BGB's profile - took just two minutes of time to discover: http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=YVMd0hMAAADN7svbjKFmbtu94uFL4OxHWMj6vob75xS36mXc24h6ww One of the earliest examples of that posters contribution. Not familiar with the topic, yet I see "expert" leaping from the read. http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cuartbar6rpbq9e%40corp.supernews.com%3E You wrote "I think this one is about to exceed the limit". By engaging Paul you only serve to feed him, on anything, he will accept anything as fodder to build a troll from. Nobody has a purpose in taking him to a place where it is felt "this one is about to exceed the limit". A simple check of the posting Host is enough to hold back **any** response. See -->X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org ? Key "DEL" unread. Paul has painted himself into a corner, over time. news.aioe.org is the only free server which is tolerating his Bullshit, at this time. He has been booted from all the other portals of generosity. Paul will not use his paid subscription with Giganews nor the account he has weazled from Eternal September (after being booted from there) to troll from. He is reluctant to always use his Google profiles only because he knows many servers and most savvy Usenet readers have those posts filtered out. So he is very easy to spot, and easier even to control with a filter. Google up any of these "From" to find Paul using news.aioe.org, and only in just the past weeks. The whole list since his beginning days back in 2002 is way too extensive to post. Tim Harrison, Sulfide Eater, Chad Carmichael, Extravagan, Meerkats, Purpleswandir, Heike Svensson, Derek Yancey, Zxcvbnm, Greg Kelly, Willy Wonka, Nougat Surprise, Mister Whiskers, John Harbl, Alice, Cthun, Boojum, Katie Gerrolds, Julie Faramis, Henry Harrison, Nancy, And--><supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> Paul mentions "the weirdo calling himself "tholen"" which is most ironic as it is "tholen" who has provided Paul with many lessons on how to circumvent filters. Paul is brilliant at copying other peoples work, both "good" and "bad". It is how he has existed since his school days, after failing miserably on his own oats. There were two or three posters here in cljp who knew all this. Where they are today is likely the same place Paul has driven many others. Off Usenet. It is what he does. Paul cannot play so nobody else can. That is his thinking. -- regards Steve
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-06 19:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <97jq7qFo8pU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5917 |
In article <4e14a510$0$6450$c3e8da3$b1356c67@news.astraweb.com>, Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> wrote: > blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> > wrote: > >In article <iv1biu$r22$2@speranza.aioe.org>, > >KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > >> On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > >> > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > >> > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > >> On 05/07/2011 5:10 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > >> > In article<iuvoo8$fbj$1@speranza.aioe.org>, > >> > KitKat<kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > >> >> On 05/07/2011 3:15 PM, BGB wrote: > >> >>> On 7/1/2011 3:08 PM, KitKat wrote: > >> >>>> Regardless of which, "Onodera" also sounds feminine. > >> >>> > >> >>> grr... the name is not latin-based, > >> >> > >> >> What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB? > >> > > >> > About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one > >> > who brought that up? [ snip ] > >> Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that > >> posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be > >> amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly > >> understandable or, apparently, relevant. > > > >"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts > >of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to > >something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being > >of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though > >BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that. > >I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think > >this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so > >will try not to reply further. > > As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an > extensive passive record of Usenet contribution. Oh my, I really did not express myself clearly, did I? What I think is about to go out of bounds is this subthread as a whole, not BGB's participation. As best I can tell he makes plenty of on-topic contributions, and speaking only for myself *I* don't think there's anything wrong with the occasional digression from such a person. My record's not nearly so good, alas, and if there was an intent to criticize, it was aimed far more at myself than at BGB. [ snip ] -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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| From | Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-07 09:26 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <4e14ef70$0$1580$c3e8da3$92d0a893@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #5920 |
blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> wrote: >In article <4e14a510$0$6450$c3e8da3$b1356c67@news.astraweb.com>, >Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> wrote: >> blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> >> wrote: [cut] >>>"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts >>>of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to >>>something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being >>>of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though >>>BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that. >>>I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think >>>this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so >>>will try not to reply further. >> >> As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an >> extensive passive record of Usenet contribution. > >Oh my, I really did not express myself clearly, did I? > I am going to rip off an expression from The Great Book of Yarns (War Stories-fiction) and patch this wound of yorn with "let he who be not carrying the sin cast that first stone"... and let it rest :-) > What I think is about to go out of bounds is this subthread as a whole, not >BGB's participation. As best I can tell he makes plenty of on-topic >contributions, > Usenet, when it works best for *readers*, is all about folks of the ilk of BGB. The variation in pitch without being "whacko" is exactly what is needed in making a read. How many times have you "nodded off" in a lecture hearing some fundamentalist pedant ramble on in monotone on the topic, without once even acknowledging there is an audience nor maybe regale same with a diversionary (stay awake!) anecdotal on the mornings exercise in the broom cupboard with the campus cleaner (either gender-both)!? Myself I read thousands of posts in any one week, I publish very few, if any, some weeks. Lately (2 years+) the likes of Paul Derbyshire are "holding the floor" in many a group. That activity ruins my read. As much as Paul loathes being criticized for his stupidities, I get very proactive when an asshole ruins my read. Such is why you see me 'pop'. Reading people as BGB simply urges learning and the hunting of more information, so as to "get it". I do not need to post to learn about a topic, I do need to be able to read to have Usenet work for me. Thousands, nay millions, would join with that. >and speaking only for myself *I* don't think there's >anything wrong with the occasional digression from such a person. > I agree with the direction of your point. I carnt say "wrong" however, is the word I would use. Digression from topic only fits the "wrong" tag when it leaves the bone of the topic entirely, like mixing fart jokes into a thread on the biorhythms of an amoeba, claiming validity of topic as methane production being a biological function. This is exactly Paul's MO, precisely. Paul takes great umbrage when pulled over for doing so, playing the victim card as the first pawn move. All contrived, as the resultant flammage is his intended outcome, as a "victolly, I claim victolly". Paul in full flight demands he has the last word, always. Paul's MO is wrong, and Paul knows it. >My record's not nearly so good, alas, and if there was an intent >to criticize, it was aimed far more at myself than at BGB. > I would offer those blessed with quiet humor and a sprinkling of intelligence would have no problem accepting the explanation with a warm smile. I was most surprised to stumble across posts by Paul Derbyshire again impacting on the language groups, as this has all been done before, on at least three occasions in the past three years I am aware of. In fact it is through the considerate action of one member of cljp (at one time) that I was able to conclusively "nail Paul's ass" in archiving provenance for his activity elsewhere, Activity which was impacting on a much wider section of Usenet than the Java related groups. That information then allowed covert email contact with Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals/Mushrooms. The identification then complete. http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/show_user?_js=off&_new=true&id=621 Where those people are today I cannot know, a quick pull of headers does not show anything familiar to myself. Therefore I again put the information as an addendum. There is absolutely no doubt Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals and Paul Derbyshire of the Mushrooms _a n d_ the plethora of posting names used over many years are one and the same actual person. Paul has constructed his own problems, made his own bed. Contrary to his belief the World owes him nothing. Always beyond "off-topic", he is beyond that as can be tolerated by many, only Paul can fix that. As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn as a "From"? "blmblm@myrealbox.com" <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> The change may then allow your "nym" to list 'correctly' in the message group for all reader software; example of your header display in one reader is here: https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg Thank you for your contribution. I bid you good day and good wind aft of the body. cheers -- +comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.java.programmer -xnaREM (for future Usenetizens) Steve +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C49223bfe%240%2490264%2414726298%40news.sunsite.dk%3E pgderb@gmail.com 74.14.135.55 16 Nov 2008 hzergel901@gmail.com 74.14.135.55 17 Nov 2008 scuzwalla@gmail.com 74.14.135.55 17 Nov 2008 IP : 74.14.135.55 Neighborhood Host : bas1-ottawa10-1242466103.dsl.bell.ca Country : Canada Found on Google. Read all about it. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/browse_thread/thread/d7d67d116bd9c2e8/90b1ba4e63328fc4?q=
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| From | KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-06 20:25 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <iv2ude$sr8$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #5926 |
On 06/07/2011 7:26 PM, Steve Erwin wrote: > Usenet, when it works best for *readers*, is all about > folks of the ilk of BGB. The variation in pitch without > being "whacko" is exactly what is needed in making a > read. How many times have you "nodded off" in a lecture > hearing some fundamentalist pedant ramble on in > monotone on the topic, without once even acknowledging > there is an audience nor maybe regale same with a > diversionary (stay awake!) anecdotal on the mornings > exercise in the broom cupboard with the campus > cleaner (either gender-both)!? What does that paragraph even *mean*? > Myself I read thousands of posts in any one week, I > publish very few, if any, some weeks. Lately (2 years+) > the likes of Paul Derbyshire are "holding the floor" in > many a group. That activity ruins my read. > > As much as Paul loathes being criticized for his > stupidities, More unsubstantiated allegations against this Paul you seem to be so obsessed with. Axe-grind much? > I get very proactive when an asshole ruins > my read. You weren't even participating in this thread until you jumped into it with the sole apparent objective of foaming at the mouth about your arch-nemesis to anyone who might listen. And so inarticulately that blmblm didn't even figure out who you were misidentifying as your target! Just go away. > Such is why you see me 'pop'. In other words, you will lurk in a newsgroup until someone says something you disagree with, or your paranoid little brain suddenly convinces itself that someone in it is your arch-foe in disguise, and then you'll bombard the group and disrupt random threads with off-topic flames? Hate to break it to you, Steve, but that sort of behavior will just mark *you* as a troll and land you in everyone's killfiles in short order. Now fuck off. > Reading people as BGB simply urges learning and the > hunting of more information, so as to "get it". How ironic. > I do not need to post to learn about a topic, I do need > to be able to read to have Usenet work for me. > Thousands, nay millions, would join with that. Usenet is a discussion platform, not a lecture hall. People can and will talk back and debate various things. Perhaps blogs and podcasts are more your speed. And while it's all fine and dandy to purely lurk, posting SOLELY to complain about/accuse other posters of stuff and not to actually discuss a newsgroup's topic is just plain bad netiquette. Doing it in the form of incoherent and partly-unintelligible rants doubly so. >> and speaking only for myself *I* don't think there's >> anything wrong with the occasional digression from such a person. > > I agree with the direction of your point. I carnt say > "wrong" however, is the word I would use. > Digression from topic only fits the "wrong" tag when it > leaves the bone of the topic entirely, like mixing fart > jokes into a thread on the biorhythms of an amoeba, And mixing flames and your personal axe grinding regarding this Paul fella into a thread on Java's object monitors? How ironic. > This is exactly Paul's MO, precisely. Actually, it seems to be *your* MO. > Paul takes great umbrage when pulled over for doing > so, playing the victim card as the first pawn move. Looks like the term "netkkkop" has never been more applicable. I mean, not only are you demanding unilaterally that a whole news server be arbitrarily subjected to a form of UDP, and going around badmouthing someone for who knows what purported "crimes", but now you not only claim to be the local topic police but even specifically use cop metaphors like "pulled over"? Policeman, arrest thyself, for thou art guilty of the very charge thou hath just levelest at others! Tell everyone to killfile all news posts originating from Astraweb and flame thyself! Or else thou art proven, by thine own hand, to be the biggest hypocrite in all of the English-speaking world! > All contrived, as the resultant flammage is his > intended outcome, as a "victolly, I claim victolly". <tholen>What does your "flammage" [sic] have to do with Java?</tholen> > Paul in full flight demands he has the last word, > always. Projecting again? > Paul's MO is wrong, and Paul knows it. Let me guess: Paul is actually you, and your Hyde side, named "Steve", is trying to kill your Jekyll side? > I was most surprised to stumble across posts > by Paul Derbyshire again impacting on the language > groups, as this has all been done before, on at least > three occasions in the past three years I am aware of. You have stumbled across either your own previous post (see above) or your own hallucination and/or paranoia, I'm not sure which. > http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/show_user?_js=off&_new=true&id=621 So there is somebody with that name out there. So what? Nothing at that site has anything in the least to do with Java or any of the posters in this newsgroup except to your paranoid little mind which apparently sees connections and conspiracies of some sort everywhere. > Where those people are today I cannot know, a quick > pull of headers does not show anything familiar to > myself. Therefore I again put the information as an > addendum. There is absolutely no doubt > Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals and Paul Derbyshire > of the Mushrooms _a n d_ the plethora of posting names > used over many years are one and the same actual > person. Paranoia obviously knows no bounds. I just hope you're not liable to violence. Lots of people develop what you have and start linking random websites, television people, and other stuff and believing they're all connected and that the news anchor is using body language to send them secret messages about the CIA's mind reading agents that are hunting you and yadda yadda yadda, and most of them never actually hurt anybody, but every once in a while one of you nuts grabs a sawed-off and goes berserk in a shopping mall or something after the voices tell you that Celine Dion is dumping you or whatever. I do hope you're not one of the ones that goes berserk. > Paul has constructed his own problems, made his own > bed. Contrary to his belief the World owes him nothing. Besides being another unsubstantiated claim regarding someone who isn't posting to this newsgroup, that last bit is just plain wrong anyway, according to the various UN Declarations and Geneva Conventions; those say there is a certain minimum that the world owes a human being in the way of rights. > Always beyond "off-topic", he is beyond that as can be > tolerated by many, only Paul can fix that. Sounds like you're talking about yourself again there, Steve. > As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn > as a "From"? > "blmblm@myrealbox.com"<blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> > The change may then allow your "nym" to list > 'correctly' in the message group for all reader > software; > example of your header display in one reader is here: > https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg Finally, something somewhat intelligible and constructive in one of your posts. And even then it has nothing whatsoever to do with Java. > Thank you for your contribution. Thank you, in advance, for getting the fuck out of cljp. Unless, of course, you plan to actually start posting about Java. > I bid you good day and good wind aft of the body. You bid him good day and happy farts?! What the hell, Steve!
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-07 19:37 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <97mg82FpbhU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5931 |
In article <iv2ude$sr8$1@speranza.aioe.org>, KitKat <kitkat_11697@gmail.example.com> wrote: > On 06/07/2011 7:26 PM, Steve Erwin wrote: [ snip ] > You weren't even participating in this thread until you jumped into it > with the sole apparent objective of foaming at the mouth about your > arch-nemesis to anyone who might listen. And so inarticulately that > blmblm didn't even figure out who you were misidentifying as your target! Don't be so sure about that. But sometimes [*] I have enough sense to know when to stay out of a fight. [*] Apparently not always. [ snip ] > > I bid you good day and good wind aft of the body. > > You bid him good day and happy farts?! What the hell, Steve! Wrong pronoun, if you're referring to me. Just sayin', since you seem to care about this sort of thing. -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-07-07 19:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <97mg3pFpbhU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #5926 |
In article <4e14ef70$0$1580$c3e8da3$92d0a893@news.astraweb.com>, Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> wrote: > blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> > wrote: > >In article <4e14a510$0$6450$c3e8da3$b1356c67@news.astraweb.com>, > >Steve Erwin <trollHunter@Usenet.4.usenetizens.org.invalid> wrote: > >> blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> > >> wrote: [ snip ] > As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn > as a "From"? > "blmblm@myrealbox.com" <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> > The change may then allow your "nym" to list > 'correctly' in the message group for all reader > software; > example of your header display in one reader is here: > https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg Eh. I'm not sure I *want* only the part you have in double quotes to display (which is what would happen, right?) -- it's no longer a working address, and while the actual address in the angle brackets works, anyone who assumes the "nym" is a working address .... (Not that it matters, but you've found for me one more site that apparently requires a newer version of Javascript than is included in the Firefox on the system I usually use at home -- when I point that old Firefox at the above URL, I get something that asks me to log in or create an account. If there's a way to download the file without creating an account, it's not obvious .... Trying again with a more recent browser gave better results (an option for "free download"). What a pain. Why I don't replace that old Firefox -- eh, long story, comes down to "more trouble than you might think".) [ snip ] -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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