Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #6952

Re: higher precision doubles

From	Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: higher precision doubles
Date	2011-08-10 08:50 +0200
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<j1t9mp$2im$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <cOqdnfXfM99lhaDTnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@earthlink.com> <j1qdrt$30a$1@speranza.aioe.org> <soqdnRy-6cN1idzTnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@earthlink.com> <j1r7gn$8f1$1@news.albasani.net> <cbidnQ8Kk6DbxtzTnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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Patricia Shanahan schrieb:
> On 8/9/2011 5:00 AM, Jan Burse wrote:
> ...
>> The above document is a little bit sloppy, since it mentions
>> only additional bits in the exponent. But 80bit doubles have
>> both, additional bits in the mantissa and in the exponent.
>> So differences might be more subtle.
> ...
>
> My understanding from discussions at the time is that they were not
> being sloppy. They had already solved dealing with the extra mantissa
> bits, and remember the JLS defines *exactly* how numbers must round.
>
> Patricia

Don't understand me wrong. I don't refer to the JLS or
VM as being sloppy. Only the cert.org article, they
write in the introduction:

   .. can provide extended floating-point support with
   exponents that contain more bits ..

They should mention exponents AND mantissa. So we can
turn their example:

   double x = Double.MAX_VALUE * 1.1 / 1.1;

Into a mantissa problem by replacing it with:

   double x = 1 + 1.0E-nn - 1;

With nn sufficiently big but not too big. Under 80bit
x can receive the value 1.0E-nn whereas under 64bit
the result is zero.

So differences need not always be that dramatic
that an overflow/underflow occurs/does not occur.

Pitty I don't have an example at hand where the
differences are dramatic and without
reaching into overflow/underflow.

Well doing it like that:

   double x = 1 / (1 + 1.0E-nn - 1).

You get in 64bit a NaN and under 80bit no NaN, just
something close to 1.0Enn.

So the cert article and the Wikipedia Article could
mention that under non-strict computation not only
overflows and underflows can disappear, but also
NaNs can suddently disappear.

So if an application relies on NaNs appearing
in certain situations, this application might
behave differently under 64bit and 80bit. Could
result in different runtimes to reach some closure
condition etc..

Best Regards

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Thread

higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-06 00:20 +0200
  Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-06 03:35 -0700
    Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-06 13:03 +0200
      Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-06 12:20 -0700
        Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-06 23:30 +0200
          Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-06 16:12 -0700
            Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 01:35 +0200
              Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-06 19:26 -0700
    Re: higher precision doubles supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-08-09 00:42 -0400
      Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-09 04:07 -0700
        Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-09 14:00 +0200
          Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-09 09:07 -0700
            Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-10 08:50 +0200
        Re: higher precision doubles supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations <supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com> - 2011-08-10 20:16 -0400
      Re: higher precision doubles Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-08-09 10:11 -0500
        Re: higher precision doubles Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-08-09 22:40 -0400
          Re: higher precision doubles Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-08-09 22:06 -0500
            Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-10 08:53 -0700
  Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-06 21:24 +0200
    Re: higher precision doubles markspace <-@.> - 2011-08-06 13:29 -0700
      Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-06 23:20 +0200
        Re: higher precision doubles markspace <-@.> - 2011-08-06 15:43 -0700
          Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 01:06 +0200
            Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-06 16:21 -0700
              Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 01:34 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-06 21:32 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 17:24 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 17:39 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-07 09:26 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 21:23 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-08-07 20:48 -0400
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-08 09:05 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-08 05:37 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-08 19:08 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-08 19:16 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-08 19:29 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-08-08 21:34 -0500
                Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-08 13:49 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-09 01:08 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-09 02:44 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-09 12:52 +0200
                Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-09 13:15 -0700
                Re: higher precision doubles BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-07 13:51 -0700
              Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 01:59 +0200
        Re: higher precision doubles Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-08-08 21:03 -0500
    Re: higher precision doubles Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-08-06 17:33 -0400
    Re: higher precision doubles Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-08-06 14:51 -0700
      Re: higher precision doubles Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2011-08-07 00:57 +0200

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