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Re: Java puzzler

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On 05/12/2011 01:02 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 08:10:16 -0700, markspace<-@.>  wrote, quoted or
> indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>> Actually I took that as a compliment.  He's saying other people know the
>> language better than him.
>
> Of course. Surely Lew knows the high esteem I hold Patricia Shanahan.
> See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/who.html
>
> I mentioned Lew in the same sentence. That is high praise.
>
> When I read the JLS, it always seems to me extremely ambiguous.  I
> would never trust my interpretation.  Others seem to understand its
> language patterns more deeply and with confidence divine what it
> means.  It may be that they have done more experiments and have at a
> gut level learned the sort of language Mr. Gosling uses.
>
> To me it seems highly reckless to trust my own interpretation of the
> JLS.  It must be supplemented with some experiments for verification.
>
> I have learned that people like Patricia and Lew can make
> pronouncements apparently based on nothing but the JLS that are
> remarkably accurate. To me this seems an almost magical ability, like
> being able to see in the pitch dark.
>
> Lew thinks everyone should have his skill and are just being lazy if
> they don't.  I think his ability is quite rare.
>
> The basic disagreement is Lew wants people to attempt to understand
> the JLS on a routine basis.  In contrast, I don't want people to trust
> their interpretations.  They should do experiments too, and/or consult
> people with high skill.
>
> Interpreting the JLS is a special skill quite different from
> programming.

If you cannot even TRY to understand the JLS, you should not program in Java.

The JLS is the ultimate authority on the Java language.  You keep suggesting 
that a person shouldn't even /attempt/ to understand it unless you have a rare 
or special skill to read the specification.  Bullshit.

You think I have a special skill at reading it.  Sure - it's called "spending 
time reading, studying and thinking about the JLS".  Anyone who can program 
can do that.  Anyone who won't do that shouldn't program.

Even you, Roedy, can understand the JLS if you work at it.  I'm fairly 
confident that I'm not all that much smarter than you are.

I do NOT suggest that one use the JLS as one's only source of information. 
That would be stupid.  I urge all Java programmers to spend the time and 
effort to understand the JLS, using other works to deepen your understanding, 
show how to apply it, and explain rationales.

Telling yourself that Lew has a "magical ability" is a foolish fiction.  I 
just am not lazy about the JLS.  Maybe Patricia has one; I can believe that. 
Not me.  I'm smart, but the key is I'M AT LEAST TRYING!

Roedy, if you cannot understand the JLS you should take down your Java advice 
from mindprod.com until you do.

OK, I'm not serious, since your advice is 99% fabulous (and your picture 
reveals that you are a surprisingly handsome man, BTW), but really, Roedy, you 
do yourself a disservice let alone everyone else.  Sure, the JLS can be opaque 
in parts in its efforts at precision.  But keep at it - it is, after all, the 
only and ultimate source of Java language truth.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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Java puzzler Gábor Bakos <aborgabor@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 16:36 -0700
  Re: Java puzzler Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-10 20:16 -0400
  Re: Java puzzler Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-11 03:03 -0700
    Re: Java puzzler Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 09:07 -0400
      Re: Java puzzler markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-11 08:10 -0700
        Re: Java puzzler Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-11 22:02 -0700
          Re: Java puzzler Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 08:35 -0400
            Re: Java puzzler Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-12 08:13 -0700
              Re: Java puzzler Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 12:11 -0400
                Re: Java puzzler Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-12 18:28 -0700
          Re: Java puzzler Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-12 10:14 -0400
      Re: Java puzzler Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-11 21:49 -0700

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