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Re: Looking For Direction

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  Re: Looking For Direction "Arved Sandstrom" <arved.sandstrom@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
    Re: Looking For Direction "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=" <=?iso-8859-1?q?arne_vajh=@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
      Re: Looking For Direction "Arved Sandstrom" <arved.sandstrom@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
        Re: Looking For Direction "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=" <=?iso-8859-1?q?arne_vajh=@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
          Re: Looking For Direction "JC" <jc@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
            Re: Looking For Direction "Arved Sandstrom" <arved.sandstrom@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
              Re: Looking For Direction "JC" <jc@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
      Re: Looking For Direction "David Kerber" <david.kerber@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
        Re: Looking For Direction "Arved Sandstrom" <arved.sandstrom@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
          Re: Looking For Direction "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=" <=?iso-8859-1?q?arne_vajh=@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
          Re: Looking For Direction "David Kerber" <david.kerber@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
            Re: Looking For Direction "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=" <=?iso-8859-1?q?arne_vajh=@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
      Re: Looking For Direction "Martin Gregorie" <martin.gregorie@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
        Re: Looking For Direction "=?UTF-8?B?QXJuZSBWYWpow7h" <=?utf-8?b?qxjuzsbwywpow7h@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000
        Re: Looking For Direction "Arved Sandstrom" <arved.sandstrom@THRWHITE.remove-dii-this> - 2011-04-27 15:23 +0000

#409 — Re: Looking For Direction

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
JC wrote:
[ SNIP ]

> Off the top of my head, I am thinking of a Unix based version of Oracle for
> the DBMS. For the user interface I am thinking of something that is
> integrated with a web browser. And of course some sort of interface between
> the two. All this with my limited knowledge of what's out there today. I
> might be a dinosaur but certainly not stupid; I am quite capable of
> learning. I haven't been to school since 1996 when I graduated with a BS in
> Comp/Sci & Math.
> 
> Many Thanks to any/all that respond ...
> 
> -JC

I realize that you posted to Java newsgroups, and others have already 
provided good advice for Java-based work. However, in line with where 
you say you're currently at, I would recommend investigating a .NET 
approach in parallel with following up the Java/J2EE leads. For a web 
application you might then be looking at ASP.NET MVC 2, using C# as your 
primary programming language, with SQL Server as your database. The J2EE 
parallel to this could be JSF/Facelets in Java EE 6, with Java 1.6, 
using Oracle or PostgreSQL. There are lots of permutations, obviously, 
but these are broad brush suggestions.

Would I recommend one over the other, J2EE over .NET, or vice versa? No, 
I simply recommend being aware of both technology sets. Especially since 
you are essentially coming in at ground zero, which is not necessarily a 
disadvantage here.

HTH, AHS

-- 
It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would 
ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional 
ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to 
which Baghdad could be given as a parameter.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

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#410

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On 09-06-2010 20:19, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> JC wrote:
> [ SNIP ]
>
>> Off the top of my head, I am thinking of a Unix based version of
>> Oracle for
>> the DBMS. For the user interface I am thinking of something that is
>> integrated with a web browser. And of course some sort of interface
>> between
>> the two. All this with my limited knowledge of what's out there today. I
>> might be a dinosaur but certainly not stupid; I am quite capable of
>> learning. I haven't been to school since 1996 when I graduated with a
>> BS in
>> Comp/Sci & Math.
>>
>> Many Thanks to any/all that respond ...
>
> I realize that you posted to Java newsgroups, and others have already
> provided good advice for Java-based work. However, in line with where
> you say you're currently at, I would recommend investigating a .NET
> approach in parallel with following up the Java/J2EE leads. For a web
> application you might then be looking at ASP.NET MVC 2, using C# as your
> primary programming language, with SQL Server as your database. The J2EE
> parallel to this could be JSF/Facelets in Java EE 6, with Java 1.6,
> using Oracle or PostgreSQL. There are lots of permutations, obviously,
> but these are broad brush suggestions.
>
> Would I recommend one over the other, J2EE over .NET, or vice versa? No,
> I simply recommend being aware of both technology sets. Especially since
> you are essentially coming in at ground zero, which is not necessarily a
> disadvantage here.

Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.

Arne

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#411

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
Arne Vajhoj wrote:
> On 09-06-2010 20:19, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> JC wrote:
>> [ SNIP ]
>>
>>> Off the top of my head, I am thinking of a Unix based version of
>>> Oracle for
>>> the DBMS. For the user interface I am thinking of something that is
>>> integrated with a web browser. And of course some sort of interface
>>> between
>>> the two. All this with my limited knowledge of what's out there today. I
>>> might be a dinosaur but certainly not stupid; I am quite capable of
>>> learning. I haven't been to school since 1996 when I graduated with a
>>> BS in
>>> Comp/Sci & Math.
>>>
>>> Many Thanks to any/all that respond ...
>>
>> I realize that you posted to Java newsgroups, and others have already
>> provided good advice for Java-based work. However, in line with where
>> you say you're currently at, I would recommend investigating a .NET
>> approach in parallel with following up the Java/J2EE leads. For a web
>> application you might then be looking at ASP.NET MVC 2, using C# as your
>> primary programming language, with SQL Server as your database. The J2EE
>> parallel to this could be JSF/Facelets in Java EE 6, with Java 1.6,
>> using Oracle or PostgreSQL. There are lots of permutations, obviously,
>> but these are broad brush suggestions.
>>
>> Would I recommend one over the other, J2EE over .NET, or vice versa? No,
>> I simply recommend being aware of both technology sets. Especially since
>> you are essentially coming in at ground zero, which is not necessarily a
>> disadvantage here.
> 
> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.
> 
> Arne
> 
Based on what he said I wouldn't consider that to be a significant 
advantage however. An ancient version of Java, for starters. And by his 
own admission he's no DBA, so even discounting the old version of Oracle 
he doesn't have admin chops on the database side either.

Again, I'm not recommending one over the other. I wouldn't even do that 
for myself; personally I'd like to be in a position where I could work 
with the latest Java EE for 6 months, then switch to the latest .NET for 
6 months, then back to Java EE, and so on. :-) I simply believe that the 
OP is approaching this situation with practically a clean slate, so why 
not keep his eyes open while making choices?

AHS
-- 
It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would 
ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional 
ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to 
which Baghdad could be given as a parameter.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

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#420

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On 10-06-2010 06:45, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> Arne Vajhoj wrote:
>> On 09-06-2010 20:19, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> JC wrote:
>>> [ SNIP ]
>>>
>>>> Off the top of my head, I am thinking of a Unix based version of
>>>> Oracle for
>>>> the DBMS. For the user interface I am thinking of something that is
>>>> integrated with a web browser. And of course some sort of interface
>>>> between
>>>> the two. All this with my limited knowledge of what's out there
>>>> today. I
>>>> might be a dinosaur but certainly not stupid; I am quite capable of
>>>> learning. I haven't been to school since 1996 when I graduated with a
>>>> BS in
>>>> Comp/Sci & Math.
>>>>
>>>> Many Thanks to any/all that respond ...
>>>
>>> I realize that you posted to Java newsgroups, and others have already
>>> provided good advice for Java-based work. However, in line with where
>>> you say you're currently at, I would recommend investigating a .NET
>>> approach in parallel with following up the Java/J2EE leads. For a web
>>> application you might then be looking at ASP.NET MVC 2, using C# as your
>>> primary programming language, with SQL Server as your database. The J2EE
>>> parallel to this could be JSF/Facelets in Java EE 6, with Java 1.6,
>>> using Oracle or PostgreSQL. There are lots of permutations, obviously,
>>> but these are broad brush suggestions.
>>>
>>> Would I recommend one over the other, J2EE over .NET, or vice versa? No,
>>> I simply recommend being aware of both technology sets. Especially since
>>> you are essentially coming in at ground zero, which is not necessarily a
>>> disadvantage here.
>>
>> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
>> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.
>>
> Based on what he said I wouldn't consider that to be a significant
> advantage however. An ancient version of Java, for starters. And by his
> own admission he's no DBA, so even discounting the old version of Oracle
> he doesn't have admin chops on the database side either.

Even though Java 1.1 is old, then the code should still work on
a newer Java (there are few potential issues, but generally).

He may not be a DBA, but if has been writing SQL statements for the
app then he would know some of Oracles ways of doing things.

Arne

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#422

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l


>
> He may not be a DBA, but if has been writing SQL statements for the
> app then he would know some of Oracles ways of doing things.
>
> Arne
>

I dream in SQL ... :)

Even though I'm not a DBA, from time to time I have to do DBA oriented
things. Since the system is not highly sophisticated this is never been too
much of a problem. I'd say the most important thing I do along these lines
is monitor the size of the tablespaces, how fast they are growing.  Maybe a
few times in the beginning I had to resize them; but I pretty much have a
handle on it now. By law we only have to keep ten years worth of data. So
every night I have a routine that deletes anything older than ten years
(actually I go ten years and six months just to be safe). We started doing
this (deleting old data) about a year or so ago. It helps keep the size of
the database more stable (except whenever we get new contracts that are big
clients which has happened twice ... once with the state of Alabama and more
recently with West Virginia). Anyway, what I worry about is with the
deleting and adding of data on a consistent basis whether something funky
will happen some day like file corruption, fragmentation, etc. Things which
I really don't know how to fix of have any experience with.
-JC

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#424

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
JC wrote:
>> He may not be a DBA, but if has been writing SQL statements for the
>> app then he would know some of Oracles ways of doing things.
>>
>> Arne
>>
> 
> I dream in SQL ... :)
> 
> Even though I'm not a DBA, from time to time I have to do DBA oriented
> things. Since the system is not highly sophisticated this is never been too
> much of a problem. I'd say the most important thing I do along these lines
> is monitor the size of the tablespaces, how fast they are growing.  Maybe a
> few times in the beginning I had to resize them; but I pretty much have a
> handle on it now. By law we only have to keep ten years worth of data. So
> every night I have a routine that deletes anything older than ten years
> (actually I go ten years and six months just to be safe). We started doing
> this (deleting old data) about a year or so ago. It helps keep the size of
> the database more stable (except whenever we get new contracts that are big
> clients which has happened twice ... once with the state of Alabama and more
> recently with West Virginia). Anyway, what I worry about is with the
> deleting and adding of data on a consistent basis whether something funky
> will happen some day like file corruption, fragmentation, etc. Things which
> I really don't know how to fix of have any experience with.
> -JC

I should note, I certainly wasn't casting any aspersions on you by 
emphasizing that you said you're not a DBA. Neither am I. I can get 
basic DBA things done on a number of RDBMS's like Oracle, SQL Server and 
PostgreSQL, and for the databases you use I suspect you're at the same 
level as myself.

I was simply considering the fact that I myself don't have a great deal 
of time invested in learning how to do these basic DBA tasks. Also, 
there are a lot of resources available for any de facto DBA, for almost 
any widely used RDBMS. So switching from one to another, and acquiring 
the basic skill set that you have for your version of Oracle on another 
RDBMS, is not a large investment of time, IMO.

To reiterate, I am _not_ suggesting that it's a trivial thing for a 
_true_ DBA on RDBMS #1 to acquire the equivalent skills on RDBMS #2.

AHS

-- 
It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would 
ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional 
ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to 
which Baghdad could be given as a parameter.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

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#429

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
>
> To reiterate, I am _not_ suggesting that it's a trivial thing for a
> _true_ DBA on RDBMS #1 to acquire the equivalent skills on RDBMS #2.
>
> AHS
>

I agree absolutely. My first exposure to one was in the late eighties with
dBase III Plus on a stand-alone PC. That was actually when I first taught
myself programming (with use of a ref manual of course); even before
college. I later went on to R:Base; also on a stand-alone PC.

Actually, everything I do on Oracle I learned on my own. And I think this
was only possible due to a limited amount of formal training on Sybase and
T/SQL.

-JC

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#412

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
In article <4c1033b3$0$278$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, arne@vajhoej.dk 
says...

...

> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.

Not to mention that those are all cross-platform options. while .NET 
locks you into a windows-based network.

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#417

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
David Kerber wrote:
> In article <4c1033b3$0$278$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, arne@vajhoej.dk 
> says...
> 
> ...
> 
>> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
>> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.
> 
> Not to mention that those are all cross-platform options. while .NET 
> locks you into a windows-based network.

The way Mono is moving along that's not strictly speaking true. In any 
case, being "locked into" a Windows-based network is not exactly a 
liability, not now and not for a few more decades. As it is, the 
majority of fellow developers and clients that I deal with do J2SE/J2EE 
on Windows. Every job I've had there's always been a fair bit - often a 
majority - of other applications that have been on Windows. So it may be 
a point of pride that your app in theory could run on many OS's, but 
since almost everyone will have Windows who really cares?

AHS

-- 
It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would 
ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional 
ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to 
which Baghdad could be given as a parameter.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

---
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#419

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On 10-06-2010 17:45, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> David Kerber wrote:
>> In article <4c1033b3$0$278$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, arne@vajhoej.dk
>> says...
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
>>> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.
>>
>> Not to mention that those are all cross-platform options. while .NET
>> locks you into a windows-based network.
>
> The way Mono is moving along that's not strictly speaking true.

True. But Mono is only 98% MS .NET compatible or so, which
either is not compatible or requires extra work to ensure
compatibility.

 >                                                               In any
> case, being "locked into" a Windows-based network is not exactly a
> liability, not now and not for a few more decades. As it is, the
> majority of fellow developers and clients that I deal with do J2SE/J2EE
> on Windows. Every job I've had there's always been a fair bit - often a
> majority - of other applications that have been on Windows. So it may be
> a point of pride that your app in theory could run on many OS's, but
> since almost everyone will have Windows who really cares?

The database is running on non-Windows platform today and he indicated
interest in Unix as database platform.

Windows is big but it is not everything.

Arne

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#427

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
In article <k2dQn.6548$z%6.2043@edtnps83>, dcest61@hotmail.com says...
> 
> David Kerber wrote:
> > In article <4c1033b3$0$278$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, arne@vajhoej.dk 
> > says...
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> >> Given that he has Java, JDBC and Oracle experience then he should
> >> have at least some advantages going Java instead of .NET.
> > 
> > Not to mention that those are all cross-platform options. while .NET 
> > locks you into a windows-based network.
> 
> The way Mono is moving along that's not strictly speaking true. In any 
> case, being "locked into" a Windows-based network is not exactly a 
> liability, not now and not for a few more decades. As it is, the 
> majority of fellow developers and clients that I deal with do J2SE/J2EE 
> on Windows. Every job I've had there's always been a fair bit - often a 
> majority - of other applications that have been on Windows. So it may be 
> a point of pride that your app in theory could run on many OS's, but 
> since almost everyone will have Windows who really cares?

This is certainly true on the front (end-user) end, but much less so on 
the server side.  Windows still makes up only a minority of the servers 
out there.

D

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#430

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On 11-06-2010 08:28, David Kerber wrote:
> In article<k2dQn.6548$z%6.2043@edtnps83>, dcest61@hotmail.com says...
>> David Kerber wrote:
>>> Not to mention that those are all cross-platform options. while .NET
>>> locks you into a windows-based network.
>>
>> The way Mono is moving along that's not strictly speaking true. In any
>> case, being "locked into" a Windows-based network is not exactly a
>> liability, not now and not for a few more decades. As it is, the
>> majority of fellow developers and clients that I deal with do J2SE/J2EE
>> on Windows. Every job I've had there's always been a fair bit - often a
>> majority - of other applications that have been on Windows. So it may be
>> a point of pride that your app in theory could run on many OS's, but
>> since almost everyone will have Windows who really cares?
>
> This is certainly true on the front (end-user) end, but much less so on
> the server side.  Windows still makes up only a minority of the servers
> out there.

It is a rather big minority.

Java is not exactly Microsofts backyard, but a recent study showed
that Java EE projects was deployed:

Windows             57%
Redhat & Centos     35%
Suse                12%
Other Linux         16%
Solaris             18%
AIX                 14%
HP-UX                5%
Other                7%

(it adds up to more than 100% because some projects
targets multiple platforms)

For .NET the Windows percentage is approx. 100%.

That is a lot of Windows servers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Servers

gives the same picture.

Arne

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#433

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:07:40 -0400, Arne Vajh|+j wrote:

> But I don't understand why you think web server platform should relate
> to either Java EE platform or overall server platform.
>

LAMP

The acronym wouldn't exist if it didn't describe a reasonably common 
software stack. Nothing to do with Java, of course, but this thread had 
diverged into the demographics of servers.

 
-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#434

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
On 12-06-2010 14:11, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:07:40 -0400, Arne Vajh|+j wrote:
>> But I don't understand why you think web server platform should relate
>> to either Java EE platform or overall server platform.
>
> LAMP
>
> The acronym wouldn't exist if it didn't describe a reasonably common
> software stack. Nothing to do with Java, of course, but this thread had
> diverged into the demographics of servers.

I know.

But we have:
- numbers for Java EE servers
- numbers for servers total
- numbers for web servers

And I read your comments as if you think the last numbers
indicate that one of the first sets of number are not valid.

Which I don't understand.

Arne

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#437

  To: alt.comp.lang.java,comp.l
Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:07:40 -0400, Arne Vajh|+j wrote:
> 
>> But I don't understand why you think web server platform should relate
>> to either Java EE platform or overall server platform.
>>
> 
> LAMP
> 
> The acronym wouldn't exist if it didn't describe a reasonably common 
> software stack. Nothing to do with Java, of course, but this thread had 
> diverged into the demographics of servers.

It's a reasonably common software stack, but it's not a J2EE stack, 
which you know. I thought we were talking J2EE servers (with a possible 
expansion of the discussion over into what might run .NET apps), not 
every web server possible. Specifically I thought the question was, what 
OS's are supporting the servers that run J2EE (and possibly .NET) 
applications.

The thread _did_ diverge, but let's bring it back on track. In addition, 
I think the original discussion also included the OS's that J2EE 
developers might be coding on - it's my hypothesis that the OS that 
developers write J2EE apps on is very often Windows.

AHS

-- 
Software sucks because users demand it to.
-- Nathan Myhrvold

---
 * Synchronet * The Whitehouse BBS --- whitehouse.hulds.com --- check it out free usenet!
--- Synchronet 3.15a-Win32 NewsLink 1.92
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

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