Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]


Groups > comp.lang.forth > #10270 > unrolled thread

Which standard?

Started byNomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
First post2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
Last post2012-03-27 19:33 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 222 — 28 participants

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth


Contents

  Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-21 10:37 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:23 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:34 -0500
          Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-26 20:40 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 15:00 -0500
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:18 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-27 02:20 +0200
            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 10:10 +0000
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 08:31 -0500
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:08 +0200
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:31 -0500
                  Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:35 -0700
                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:47 -0500
                      Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 10:15 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:33 -0500
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 21:00 +0200
            Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:17 -0700
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:24 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:07 +0200
            Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-27 00:54 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 14:09 -0700
    Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-21 15:47 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:13 +0100
        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-21 15:07 -0700
        Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 10:14 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 16:36 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 15:19 +0100
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-23 07:48 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-23 17:28 +0000
                  Re: Which standard? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-03-23 20:51 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-24 00:47 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 08:40 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 04:42 +0200
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 19:17 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:03 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 19:20 +0100
            Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 21:15 +0000
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 17:54 -0400
              Re: Which standard? "The Other Rod Pemberton" <dontaskdonttell@pemberton.it> - 2012-03-23 18:12 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 20:39 -0400
                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:05 -1000
                    Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:11 -0700
                      Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 09:15 +0100
                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 22:52 -1000
                          Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 10:16 +0100
                        Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-24 11:25 -0700
                    Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:17 -0700
                      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 21:46 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-27 02:49 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:45 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:06 -0700
                  Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 01:51 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 14:57 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-23 12:48 +0100
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 17:50 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 13:37 -0700
    Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-21 17:07 -0400
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 09:27 +0100
        Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-22 12:06 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 19:19 -0400
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 13:02 +0100
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-22 08:17 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:25 -1000
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 21:50 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:10 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-24 11:19 +0000
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 07:55 -0400
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:12 +0000
            Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:06 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 21:03 +0200
    Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 22:28 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 16:36 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 05:15 -0400
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 12:16 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 01:26 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 15:37 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-25 22:24 +0200
              Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-26 10:49 +0100
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 20:00 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:21 -0400
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 18:51 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:16 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:21 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 01:33 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:06 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 10:08 +0000
                  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:31 +0000
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:24 -0400
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:54 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:25 -0400
                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 13:43 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 01:43 +0100
                    Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 15:56 -1000
                      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:49 +0200
                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:50 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-25 09:18 +0100
                      Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 06:07 -0400
                      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:42 +0200
                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:04 +0000
                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 04:39 -0500
                          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 22:29 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-26 18:09 +0000
                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 11:37 -0700
                            Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-26 20:49 +0200
                              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:22 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 11:20 -0700
                            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 11:59 +0000
                              Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:26 -0700
                                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-29 00:10 +0100
                                  Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 00:51 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-03-30 16:13 +0000
                            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-30 13:01 -0500
                              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-30 09:18 -1000
                                Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-03-30 14:11 -0700
                              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-31 08:18 -0500
                              Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:43 +0000
                                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 10:15 -0500
                                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 08:22 -1000
                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 14:03 -0500
                                      Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-10 12:17 -0700
                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 09:26 -1000
                                          Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-11 06:22 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-11 12:42 +0000
                                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-11 09:40 -0500
                                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-11 07:55 -0700
                                            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-11 11:28 -0500
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-27 14:15 +0000
                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-27 15:30 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? vandys@vsta.org - 2012-04-27 23:34 +0000
                                        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-27 17:25 -0700
                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-28 04:13 -0500
                                    Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 00:10 +0100
                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-28 12:53 -1000
                                        Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 01:06 +0100
                                          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-28 13:43 -1000
                                            Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 11:23 +0100
                                              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 04:35 -0500
                                                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 02:55 -0700
                                                  Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 12:01 +0100
                                                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 05:17 -0500
                                                  Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-29 14:11 +0200
                                                    Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 08:01 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-29 20:17 +0200
                                                      Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:18 -0700
                                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 08:36 -1000
                                                          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:57 -0700
                                                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-29 23:48 +0000
                                                            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 13:38 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-30 14:33 +0200
                                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-30 07:33 -1000
                                                          Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-30 19:47 +0200
                                                Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-29 10:36 +0000
                                                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:40 -0500
                                                  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-30 13:59 +0000
                                                    Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-30 16:59 +0000
                                                      Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-05-01 07:38 +0100
                                                        Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 09:36 -0400
                                                          Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-02 10:30 +0000
                                                            Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 08:33 -0400
                                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-02 14:07 +0000
                                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-30 11:50 -0700
                                                    Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-30 15:27 -0700
                                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-30 13:39 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-02 14:24 +0000
                                                      Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-05-03 17:17 +0000
                                                        Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-03 11:26 -0700
                                                          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-03 09:16 -1000
                                                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-04 12:56 +0000
                                                          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-03 14:27 -0500
                                                            Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-05-04 01:56 +0100
                                                              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-04 06:25 -0700
                                            Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 07:18 -0400
                                              Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 07:35 -0400
                                              Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-29 23:56 +0000
                                                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-29 16:43 -0700
                                                  Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 08:09 -0400
                                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-30 08:16 -0500
                                                      Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 10:27 -0400
                                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-30 06:19 -0700
                                                Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 07:49 -0400
                                        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-28 16:23 -0700
                                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-10 12:38 -0700
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-27 14:15 +0000
                                    Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-04-27 23:47 +0200
                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-27 12:04 -1000
                                        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 16:10 +0200
                                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-29 09:11 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-30 13:08 +0000
                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-03 09:27 +0000
                              Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:44 +0000
                                Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-05-01 07:25 -0700
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-05-03 17:17 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 05:47 -0400
                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 07:49 -0700
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-24 15:07 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 05:44 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 19:54 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:52 -0400
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 12:13 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 06:24 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 13:37 +0100
                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 12:20 -0500
                  Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:24 -0400
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:18 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:33 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 03:25 +0200
        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 21:40 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 04:15 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-22 13:02 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 08:51 -0700
    Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 22:14 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 23:55 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:41 -0700
          Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-27 08:45 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 01:42 +0200
            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:46 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:51 -0700
          Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 19:33 -0700

Page 9 of 12 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 12  Next page →


#11800

FromDoug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com>
Date2012-05-01 09:36 -0400
Message-ID<4f9fe6cd$0$284$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#11797
On 5/1/12 2:38 AM, Peter Knaggs wrote:

> I did argue for reserving NOT in the '94 document but was drowned out
> by the chorus of "let's not go there again".

We have the technology to handle this situation, don't we?  If today one 
wants to use NOT in a program, then just include a one-line prelude 
along with any other preludes such as DECIMAL, FORTH DEFINITIONS, etc.:

SYNONYM NOT 0=  \ or SYNONYM NOT INVERT

So no code is broken in the interim while the community is put on notice 
that the word NOT will eventually be solidified (synonym declaration not 
required) to a single definition in the ANS standard.

The downside is needing to check for prelude declarations when reading 
someone else's code in the interim.

-Doug

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11819

FromAlbert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
Date2012-05-02 10:30 +0000
Message-ID<m3e57j.luk@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#11800
In article <4f9fe6cd$0$284$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
Doug Hoffman  <glidedog@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/1/12 2:38 AM, Peter Knaggs wrote:
>
>> I did argue for reserving NOT in the '94 document but was drowned out
>> by the chorus of "let's not go there again".
>
>We have the technology to handle this situation, don't we?  If today one
>wants to use NOT in a program, then just include a one-line prelude
>along with any other preludes such as DECIMAL, FORTH DEFINITIONS, etc.:
>
>SYNONYM NOT 0=  \ or SYNONYM NOT INVERT
>
>So no code is broken in the interim while the community is put on notice
>that the word NOT will eventually be solidified (synonym declaration not
>required) to a single definition in the ANS standard.

That breaks my code. I don't have synonym in ciforth. I don't want
it in the kernel.
There is a solution:
  just start the Forth program with

WANT SYNONYM

then ciforth will fetch synonym from it library. ;-)

>
>The downside is needing to check for prelude declarations when reading
>someone else's code in the interim.

My solution in ciforth is better. If compiled with the -t option
unknown words are loaded from a library by the compiler.
Any solution where tested code has to be modified is to be rejected.

Conditional compilation is only marginally acceptable, for unlike with
huge c-compilers conditional compilation may not be available on small
systems.
E.g. it is not on the launchpad MSP430 Forth.

>
>-Doug

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11821

FromDoug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com>
Date2012-05-02 08:33 -0400
Message-ID<4fa12997$0$286$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#11819
On 5/2/12 6:30 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> Doug Hoffman<glidedog@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> If today one
>> wants to use NOT in a program, then just include a one-line prelude
>> along with any other preludes such as DECIMAL, FORTH DEFINITIONS, etc.:
>>
>> SYNONYM NOT 0=  \ or SYNONYM NOT INVERT
>>
>> So no code is broken in the interim while the community is put on notice
>> that the word NOT will eventually be solidified (synonym declaration not
>> required) to a single definition in the ANS standard.
>
> That breaks my code. I don't have synonym in ciforth. I don't want
> it in the kernel.
> There is a solution:
>    just start the Forth program with
>
> WANT SYNONYM
>
> then ciforth will fetch synonym from it library. ;-)

Sure, that or the equivalent should work for (almost?) everyone.

>>
>> The downside is needing to check for prelude declarations when reading
>> someone else's code in the interim.
>
> My solution in ciforth is better. If compiled with the -t option
> unknown words are loaded from a library by the compiler.
> Any solution where tested code has to be modified is to be rejected.
>
> Conditional compilation is only marginally acceptable, for unlike with
> huge c-compilers conditional compilation may not be available on small
> systems.
> E.g. it is not on the launchpad MSP430 Forth.

Perfection is hard to achieve.

Meanwhile both bit-wise and cell-wise logical NOT use remains 
unsatisfactory.  Meaningful names are important.  INVERT is 0= liked for 
bit-wise and 0= is 0= liked for cell-wise.  Further, a cell-wise XOR 
does 0= exist.

-Doug

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11825

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2012-05-02 14:07 +0000
Message-ID<2012May2.160740@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#11789
stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:59:27 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
>(Anton Ertl) wrote:
>
>>stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>>>The problem is that nobody (including MPE) removed their version
>>>of NOT from their implementations - it was perfectly legal to
>>>leave it in.
>>
>>Gforth never contained NOT, but then we only started after it was
>>clear that NOT was not in ANS Forth.
>>
>>>I have long believed that marking words as obsolete is not enough.
>>
>>NOT was not made obsolete.  It is not in Forth-94 at all.
>
>I think that you are missing the point.
>
>Words that the TC (or community) believe should die out, e.g. NOT or
>FORGET, need to be marked in such a way that implementers make an
>effort to remove them. If we don't do this, there will be discussions
>about NOT in another twenty years, nearly forty years after NOT was
>removed from a standards document.

My guess is that, if we do this, there will also be discussions about
NOT in another twenty years, with slightly different content.  That's
because people would like to have NOT as a standard word
(unfortunately without consensus on what it should mean).  Note that
the current discussion did not come about because of NOT in some
specific systems, so the absence of NOT in every system would not have
prevented it.

Also, I think that preventing discussions about a word is an extremely
weak reason for a change in the standard.

>>One approach would have been to mark NOT as reserved word name, so
>>that systems providing NOT would be non-standard.  That might have
>>cooled the usage down enough to allow re-standardization now, but OTOH
>>there would then be no common practice.
>
>I agree with the first sentence. As for the second sentence, lack
>of common practice (as opposed to common name) indicates lack of
>need.

There would be common practice for using 0= and INVERT, and for
aliasing NOT as one of them, but no common practice for which one to
alias with.

>It really does not matter what NOT "ought" to mean. In the current
>situation, using that name is irresponsible for portability.

That's because there is no consensus on what it ought to mean.

Maybe a solution would be to define NOT only for well-formed flags,
and to require systems to produce an error for other arguments for now
(but programs must not rely on that), i.e.:

: NOT ( f1 -- f2 )
  dup 0= over invert <> -12 and throw \ argument type mismatch
  invert ; \ or 0=, same result

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11792

FromBruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net>
Date2012-04-30 11:50 -0700
Message-ID<c9ca1e16-8088-4ba9-b94f-e7b7a319f7d8@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#11779
On Apr 30, 9:59 am, an...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
wrote:
> IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
> its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use
> NOT?

For precisely the same purpose as NOT ~ that NOT is often more
expressive ~ while at the same time avoiding bickering from the bit-
operator patrol.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11794

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-04-30 15:27 -0700
Message-ID<7xr4v4rh38.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#11779
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
> its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use NOT?

0= seems to rely on a coincidence of data representation.  INVERT
sounds like 1/x or something of that sort.  I would have preferred
COMPLEMENT, but I guess it's too late for that now.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11795

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-04-30 13:39 -1000
Message-ID<Xv-dnRODxqEhvwLSnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11794
On 4/30/12 12:27 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
>> its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use NOT?
>
> 0= seems to rely on a coincidence of data representation.  INVERT
> sounds like 1/x or something of that sort.  I would have preferred
> COMPLEMENT, but I guess it's too late for that now.

Use of 0= is consistent with NOT's original intended use as a preamble 
to IF, WHILE, or UNTIL. Since these words take any non-zero bits to 
indicate TRUE, a simple test for zero gives the appropriate result.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11826

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2012-05-02 14:24 +0000
Message-ID<2012May2.162425@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#11794
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
>> its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use NOT?
>
>0= seems to rely on a coincidence of data representation.

0= expresses exactly what is done (and required) if you don't know
that the value is a well-formed flag.  If the value is guaranteed to
be a well-formed flag, you can use INVERT if you don't like 0=.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11869

FromMarc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid>
Date2012-05-03 17:17 +0000
Message-ID<jnueik$pva$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#11794
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> > IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
> > its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use NOT?
> 
> 0= seems to rely on a coincidence of data representation.[...]

I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = . There are similar contractions
like 1+ , 1- , 2* , 2/ . So it is quite common in Forth.

-- 
Marc

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11879

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-05-03 11:26 -0700
Message-ID<7xsjfhf7el.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#11869
Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
> same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = .

"if 0" instead of "if False" would be a type error in Haskell since 0 is
an integer and not a Bool.  (0==) or 0 = is fine if you're trying to
compare an integer to the integer 0.  Forth presses integers into double
duty as booleans resulting in this kludge.  C and Python used to do the
same thing, but both fixed the deficiency later.  Algol included
booleans even back in the 1950's, I believe.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11887

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-05-03 09:16 -1000
Message-ID<W_WdnWRLW8zsRD_SnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11879
On 5/3/12 8:26 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Marc Olschok<nobody@nowhere.invalid>  writes:
>> I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
>> same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = .
>
> "if 0" instead of "if False" would be a type error in Haskell since 0 is
> an integer and not a Bool.  (0==) or 0 = is fine if you're trying to
> compare an integer to the integer 0.  Forth presses integers into double
> duty as booleans resulting in this kludge.  C and Python used to do the
> same thing, but both fixed the deficiency later.  Algol included
> booleans even back in the 1950's, I believe.

Forth is not a strongly typed language (you've probably noticed). 
Forthers consider this an asset, not a "kludge". Just a different way of 
thinking about things.

Cheers,
Elizbeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11916

FromAlbert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
Date2012-05-04 12:56 +0000
Message-ID<m3i1al.8dv@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#11887
In article <W_WdnWRLW8zsRD_SnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:
>On 5/3/12 8:26 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Marc Olschok<nobody@nowhere.invalid>  writes:
>>> I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
>>> same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = .
>>
>> "if 0" instead of "if False" would be a type error in Haskell since 0 is
>> an integer and not a Bool.  (0==) or 0 = is fine if you're trying to
>> compare an integer to the integer 0.  Forth presses integers into double
>> duty as booleans resulting in this kludge.  C and Python used to do the
>> same thing, but both fixed the deficiency later.  Algol included
>> booleans even back in the 1950's, I believe.
>
>Forth is not a strongly typed language (you've probably noticed).
>Forthers consider this an asset, not a "kludge". Just a different way of
>thinking about things.

And besides, there is nothing wrong with IF taking an int,
as is specified in the Forth language and in the Python language.

Rubin speaks of Algol 68.
In Algol 68 "if" creates a 'meek context',
that means that after "if" a boolean expression is not required,
as Rubin suggests.
This is what meek means:
If the compiler knows that it is a reference to a boolean it is
automatically dereferenced, and if it is a procedure yielding a
boolean it is automatically called.
In Forth terms Algol 68 adds a @ or an EXECUTE automatically.

It is just a matter of how a language is defined.
(Automatic conversion from int to bool would not be nice in
the framework of Algol68).

>
>Cheers,
>Elizbeth
>

Groetjes Albert

--
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11888

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2012-05-03 14:27 -0500
Message-ID<aJOdnc4ava-YQT_SnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11879
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> writes:
>> I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
>> same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = .
> 
> "if 0" instead of "if False" would be a type error in Haskell since
> 0 is an integer and not a Bool.  (0==) or 0 = is fine if you're
> trying to compare an integer to the integer 0.  Forth presses
> integers into double duty as booleans resulting in this kludge.  C
> and Python used to do the same thing, but both fixed the deficiency
> later.

I don't know about Python, but C's if hasn't changed at all.  C's bool
(aka _Bool) is just an integer type large enough to store the values 0
and 1.

Andrew.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11898

FromJan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk>
Date2012-05-04 01:56 +0100
Message-ID<lK6dnb3IF6jVtD7SnZ2dnUVZ7qidnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
In reply to#11888
On 03/05/12 20:27, Andrew Haley wrote:
> Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>  wrote:
>> Marc Olschok<nobody@nowhere.invalid>  writes:
>>> I am sure you remember (0==) from Haskell. The 0= in Forth does the
>>> same thing. It is a contraction of 0 = .
>>
>> "if 0" instead of "if False" would be a type error in Haskell since
>> 0 is an integer and not a Bool.  (0==) or 0 = is fine if you're
>> trying to compare an integer to the integer 0.  Forth presses
>> integers into double duty as booleans resulting in this kludge.  C
>> and Python used to do the same thing, but both fixed the deficiency
>> later.
>
> I don't know about Python, but C's if hasn't changed at all.  C's bool
> (aka _Bool) is just an integer type large enough to store the values 0
> and 1.

Similarly in Python, "Booleans are a subtype of integers."[1] 
Interestingly, the length of True is 1, but the length of False is 
zero.

Also, "Any object can be tested for truth value, for use in an if 
or while condition or as operand of the Boolean operations below. 
The following values are considered false:
   None, False
   zero of any numeric type, for example, 0, 0.0, 0j.
   any empty sequence, for example, '', (), [].
   any empty mapping, for example, {}.
   ...

The default integer type for Python and C is unsigned, as this 
makes True = +1  Since the size of Python's integer is 
unconstrained, it is a pity that the integer type in not signed, 
removing ambiguity.  Then the boolean False would be -1.

A small similarity between Forth and Python is that functions may 
have multiple return values.

Jan Coombs
-- 
[1] http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/stdtypes.html

jan@T60:~$ python
Python 2.7.2+ (default, Oct  4 2011, 20:03:08)
[GCC 4.6.1] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

 >>> False==0
True
 >>> True==1
True

 >>> int.bit_length(True)
1
 >>> int.bit_length(False)
0

 >>> sys.maxint
2147483647
 >>> sys.maxint + 1
2147483648L

 >>> q,r = divmod(10,3)
 >>> q,r
(3, 1)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11921

FromBruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net>
Date2012-05-04 06:25 -0700
Message-ID<1791e270-f68b-4dc1-95e6-8d1ef3dee6e8@2g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#11898
On May 3, 8:56 pm, Jan Coombs <jan_2011...@murray-microft.co.uk>
wrote:
> Similarly in Python, "Booleans are a subtype of integers."[1]
> Interestingly, the length of True is 1, but the length of False is
> zero.

Yes, and then there's Forth, where flags and integers are both
subtypes of cells.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11740

FromDoug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com>
Date2012-04-29 07:18 -0400
Message-ID<4f9d2374$0$281$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#11727
On 4/28/12 7:43 PM, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> See, this is why it can never be resolved, because the whole issue is
> how people *think* about this operator: a precursor to IF, UNTIL and
> WHILE, or a logical operation.

There is at least one Forth that addresses this issue by adding NIF, 
NUNTIL, and NWHILE.  These words do what you expect.

Alternatively, one could modify the spelling of (bit-wise logical) NOT 
to something like NOT? for (cell-wise logical) flags.  There is some 
precedence for this with the words EMIT? and KEY? both returning a 
conditional flag while EMIT and KEY do something else.

In either case INVERT would be retained as a synonym for NOT and for 
backwards compatibility.

I guess this dilemma stems from the bitwise-logical AND and OR being 
able to do double-duty for control-flow but not so for NOT (clumsy 
sentence!).

It does seem odd that there is no NOT in the standard.

-Doug

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11741

FromDoug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com>
Date2012-04-29 07:35 -0400
Message-ID<4f9d276b$0$290$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#11740
On 4/29/12 7:18 AM, Doug Hoffman wrote:
> On 4/28/12 7:43 PM, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>
>> See, this is why it can never be resolved, because the whole issue is
>> how people *think* about this operator: a precursor to IF, UNTIL and
>> WHILE, or a logical operation.
>
> There is at least one Forth that addresses this issue by adding NIF,
> NUNTIL, and NWHILE. These words do what you expect.
>
> Alternatively, one could modify the spelling of (bit-wise logical) NOT
> to something like NOT? for (cell-wise logical) flags. There is some
> precedence for this with the words EMIT? and KEY? both returning a
> conditional flag while EMIT and KEY do something else.
>
> In either case INVERT would be retained as a synonym for NOT and for
> backwards compatibility.
>
> I guess this dilemma stems from the bitwise-logical AND and OR being
> able to do double-duty for control-flow but not so for NOT (clumsy
> sentence!).
>
> It does seem odd that there is no NOT in the standard.

Haven't we the same problem with (the bitwise logical) XOR ?
Perhaps we also need a (cell-wise logical) XOR? for control flow?

-Doug

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11759

FromAlbert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
Date2012-04-29 23:56 +0000
Message-ID<m39mio.be6@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#11740
In article <4f9d2374$0$281$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
Doug Hoffman  <glidedog@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 4/28/12 7:43 PM, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>
>> See, this is why it can never be resolved, because the whole issue is
>> how people *think* about this operator: a precursor to IF, UNTIL and
>> WHILE, or a logical operation.
>
>There is at least one Forth that addresses this issue by adding NIF,
>NUNTIL, and NWHILE.  These words do what you expect.
>
>Alternatively, one could modify the spelling of (bit-wise logical) NOT
>to something like NOT? for (cell-wise logical) flags.  There is some
>precedence for this with the words EMIT? and KEY? both returning a
>conditional flag while EMIT and KEY do something else.

That might be a good idea. NOT? OR? and AND? are guaranteed to
leave a well formed flag, while not requiring well formed flags
as input. I thought of re-introducing NOT in ciforth, but now I
think it is better to call it NOT? .

>
>In either case INVERT would be retained as a synonym for NOT and for
>backwards compatibility.
>
>I guess this dilemma stems from the bitwise-logical AND and OR being
>able to do double-duty for control-flow but not so for NOT (clumsy
>sentence!).

The  double-duty for AND and OR is false economy.
Maybe it is time to get away from it.

>
>It does seem odd that there is no NOT in the standard.

There is. 0= serves that purpose. That doesn't make it less odd.

>
>-Doug
>

Groetjes Albert

--
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11761

FromBruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net>
Date2012-04-29 16:43 -0700
Message-ID<7b1eaaf0-5793-456e-b38c-0267ca6cc692@e42g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#11759
On Apr 29, 7:56 pm, Albert van der Horst <alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
wrote:
> NOT? OR? and AND? are guaranteed to leave a well formed flag, while not
> requiring well formed flags as input.

That I like. 0= as NOT? already complies.

[UNDEFINED] 0<>  [IF] : 0<> ( x -- fl ) 0= 0= ;            [THEN]
[UNDEFINED] NOT? [IF] : NOT? ( x -- fl ) 0= ;              [THEN]
[UNDEFINED] OR?  [IF] : OR? ( x1 x2 -- fl ) OR 0<> ;       [THEN]
[UNDEFINED] AND? [IF] : AND? ( x1 x2 -- fl ) 0<> AND 0<> ; [THEN]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11771

FromDoug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com>
Date2012-04-30 08:09 -0400
Message-ID<4f9e80e5$0$292$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#11761
On 4/29/12 7:43 PM, BruceMcF wrote:
> On Apr 29, 7:56 pm, Albert van der Horst<alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
> wrote:
>> NOT? OR? and AND? are guaranteed to leave a well formed flag, while not
>> requiring well formed flags as input.
>
> That I like. 0= as NOT? already complies.
>
> [UNDEFINED] 0<>   [IF] : 0<>  ( x -- fl ) 0= 0= ;            [THEN]
> [UNDEFINED] NOT? [IF] : NOT? ( x -- fl ) 0= ;              [THEN]
> [UNDEFINED] OR?  [IF] : OR? ( x1 x2 -- fl ) OR 0<>  ;       [THEN]
> [UNDEFINED] AND? [IF] : AND? ( x1 x2 -- fl ) 0<>  AND 0<>  ; [THEN]

Yes.  And for a complete set to add to the current standard:

[UNDEFINED] NOT [IF] : NOT ( x1 -- x2 ) INVERT ; [THEN]
[UNDEFINED] XOR? [IF] : XOR? ( x1 x2 -- fl ) 0= SWAP 0= XOR  ; [THEN]

Not sure how much of a tear-up this would present to Forths/programmers 
already using a cell-wise logical NOT.  I guess any redefinition is a 
tear-up.

-Doug

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


Page 9 of 12 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 12  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.forth


csiph-web