Groups > comp.lang.forth > #9939 > unrolled thread

can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi?

Started by	quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com>
First post	2012-03-07 19:54 -0800
Last post	2012-03-16 17:09 -0700
Articles	9 on this page of 49 — 22 participants

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can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 19:54 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-08 11:11 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-08 21:58 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? jc <john.comeau@gmail.com> - 2012-03-08 23:45 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-09 07:36 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? marko <marko@marko.marko.marko> - 2012-03-09 14:43 +1100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-09 03:09 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-09 02:10 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-09 05:34 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-03-09 08:44 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-09 11:19 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-09 18:27 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> - 2012-03-09 21:49 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-09 21:09 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-09 21:11 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> - 2012-03-10 01:21 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-10 09:37 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-10 08:31 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au> - 2012-03-11 12:29 +1100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-03-10 10:06 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-10 11:41 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 14:17 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-14 00:15 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-10 02:35 -0600
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-14 00:13 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-03-15 08:06 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-15 20:52 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-03-15 21:37 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-16 09:35 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-16 02:27 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-16 02:46 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-16 03:17 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-16 06:38 -0500
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-16 04:55 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au> - 2012-03-16 23:12 +1100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-16 14:43 +0100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 07:31 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-16 13:03 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-03-16 13:57 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-16 15:30 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-03-18 12:31 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 14:17 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-17 05:06 -0500
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au> - 2012-03-18 17:23 +1100
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 17:06 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com> - 2012-03-13 15:26 -0700
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 13:28 -0800
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-14 10:26 +0000
Re: can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 17:09 -0700

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#10209

From	Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com>
Date	2012-03-18 12:31 -0700
Message-ID	<6194582.511.1332099065189.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yneo2>
In reply to	#10176

On Friday, March 16, 2012 7:30:49 PM UTC-3, Paul Rubin wrote:
> The arduino isn't especially closed afaik.  It just uses a hw/sw
> ecosystem that (like anything else) is less attractive to some people
> than others, and it is on the expensive side for what it does.

Right. I was just saying that a lot of people who can easily use any microcontroller kit out there think the Arduino isn't good and don't understand why it has become so popular. These same people won't understand what is special about the Raspberry Pi either because the issues are similar.

> Why would he need special attention from Marvell or TI if they have
> comparably priced parts?  Why was a special deal needed even from
> Broadcom, instead or just ordering the parts the usual way, given the
> quantities involved?

None of these companies will talk to me unless I promise to buy at least one million chips a year from them. In the case of Marvell they won't even talk to me at all unless I move to a different country. So at least I can't build a Raspberry Pi equivalent (actually, I can if I design my own chip, but that is another story).

-- Jecel

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#10172

From	John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com>
Date	2012-03-16 14:17 -0700
Message-ID	<2cb3dbf7-56c1-4657-8984-a4070f18346d@k6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#10170

On Mar 16, 4:03 pm, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> What real world tasks are you going to do with a computer,
> keyboard, mouse, 8G of flash, but no screen?  Do you mean
> use the family TV set?

Yes.

> You really have to include that in the cost then, since it
> repurposes a multi-user device into a single-user device,
> so Jimmy can't do his homework while Mom and Dad watch the
> evening news, etc.

That's ridiculous.  The television is already single-user device if
Mom wants to watch X and Dad wants to watch Y.

> Or for that matter, Jimmy and Johnny (with separate rpis)
> can't both do their homework at the same time.  And aren't
> you also going to need a case and power supply?

Jimmy and Johnny and Sue and Ellen will indeed have to fight over
access to the television-- just like they do now when they want to
watch different things.  I don't see the fundamental difference
between a family scheduling use of the sole television for watching
television programs and scheduling it's use for use with a computer.
Yes, someone is going to be unhappy.  It's a tough world having to
deal with such first-world problems.

I included the cost of a cheap power supply.  As for a case, I
personally don't need one, because I don't make a habit of rubbing a
balloon on my head and then touching the conductors.  My desk at work
is covered with bare boards.  But for those who need a case, may I
suggest a nice cardboard box and duct tape.

> If you include the cost of the screen, you're now in the
> range of Android tablets (some of them under $100) which
> can also serve as e-books, or there could be an OLPC
> revival that actually hits the XO-1's original $100
> cost target this time.

I just bought a new cheap LCD monitor for $55.  For those lower-income
families that have nightly teeth-gnashing over scheduling use of the
TV, they are free to sell the dog into slavery or shave everyone's
head and sell the hair to wig-makers to get enough money to buy a
separate television.

Have you actually used the low-end Android tablets?  I have one that I
bought as a joke and it features a very slow processor, and a
resistive touch screen that is horrific for text entry.  In case you
haven't been paying attention, the general consensus is that tablet
computers-- even the nice ones-- are great for *consuming* data, but
terrible for *creating* it.  Don't believe me?  Find a tablet, log on
to Google Groups (or your favorite web-based newsgroup interface) and
write a reply to this message of at least a couple meaty paragraphs.
No, really, I dare you.  You know those hipsters you see in Starbucks
who are poking at their tablets?  They aren't writing their memoirs.

OLPC revival?  Sounds nice, except that it was a slower and more
limited device.  In the meantime, how about a nice Raspberry Pi?

> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great,
> what (if any) is the obstacle to doing a more open one?
> Is it that there's no comparable alternative to the
> Broadcom SOC?

I don't necessarily think the Raspberry Pi is "so great."  I see it as
something that offers quite a lot for the money.  Like any other piece
of computing gear, it's perfect for some, stupid for others.

Depending on what you think is "comparable" there are other SoC's.
Sitting on the floor next to me is a i.MX28 evaluation board that I
got from Freescale.  It doesn't have HDMI out (it directly drives LCD
panels) and the ARM processor is running at 450ish MHZ but has nearly
everything else.  We're looking at using it in future products at work
because the chip is around $7 and is more powerful than we need.  It
wouldn't surprise me if there were other SoC's available, but I
haven't bothered to research them.

I love the whinging over the proprietary Broadcom SoC's GPU.  Is there
more open hardware out there?  Yep.  Has anyone actually incorporated
it into a product that actual living people can buy?  Not that I see.
So should the people who potentially would benefit from the Raspberry
Pi simply do without and wait until a completely FOSS alternative
exists?  Honestly, if the GPU was indeed completely open, some of the
people here would complain that they used a red PC board instead of a
green one.  Hell, in another discussion group I'm in, it was pointed
out by one person that because it wouldn't fit into an Altoids tin (a
popular form-factor), he's going to have to cross the Raspberry Pi off
the list.

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#10181

From	Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date	2012-03-17 05:06 -0500
Message-ID	<WJadnbp4AuK0__nSnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to	#10170

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
> the obstacle to doing a more open one?  Is it that there's no comparable
> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?

Binary blobs are pretty much the norm for video hardware.  Although I
would prefer all the software to be free, I can't see this making much
difference to the target audience.

Andrew.

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#10198

From	Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au>
Date	2012-03-18 17:23 +1100
Message-ID	<ufpqcaa0mh.fsf@brushtail.apana.org.au>
In reply to	#10170

 > What real world tasks are you going to do with a computer, keyboard,
 > mouse, 8G of flash, but no screen? Do you mean use the family TV set?

If the Teenage Nerd is in a really tight spot, the RPi also supports
Composite Video outout, so he/she can procure one of those abandoned
CRTs that grow on sidewalks. :)

-- 
C,,

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#10177

From	jacko <jackokring@gmail.com>
Date	2012-03-16 17:06 -0700
Message-ID	<867506.549.1331942769163.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbiz13>
In reply to	#10153

I hear they are on sale with cat5. Coola cat penti. The driver for the video was maybe a bitch, but it's a many mega flux chip for the buck, untilinflation sets in .... :D

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#10099

From	quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com>
Date	2012-03-13 15:26 -0700
Message-ID	<8068099.8376.1331677593138.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbbed8>
In reply to	#9954

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 7:43:05 PM UTC-8, marko wrote:
> quiet_lad wrote:
> 
> > http://www.raspberrypi.org/
> 
> Gavino,
> 
> Rasberrypi software is mostly a wrapper around a huge proprietory blob. Very 
> little of it is open source.

how so?
linux supported yes?

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#9981

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date	2012-03-10 13:28 -0800
Message-ID	<f9d8a0ec-08a0-4e5c-a0da-3615e5f5d0aa@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#9939

On Mar 7, 10:54 pm, quiet_lad <gavcom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/

I like it, one reply that is actually on topic, replies to that about
your use of the word logarithm rather than algorithm and another off
topic branch which immediately started talking about FOSS and how bad
the rPi is because of its closed "blob" driver for the GPU.

Anyone actually want to discuss the damn GA144?

Rick

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#10108

From	Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
Date	2012-03-14 10:26 +0000
Message-ID	<m0vebs.dve@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to	#9981

In article <f9d8a0ec-08a0-4e5c-a0da-3615e5f5d0aa@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
rickman  <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 7, 10:54=A0pm, quiet_lad <gavcom...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
>
>I like it, one reply that is actually on topic, replies to that about
>your use of the word logarithm rather than algorithm and another off
>topic branch which immediately started talking about FOSS and how bad
>the rPi is because of its closed "blob" driver for the GPU.
>
>Anyone actually want to discuss the damn GA144?

Yes.

In first approximation:

GA144 : raspberrypi = 72K : 256M

GA144 : raspberrypi = 100KLOC : 4GLOC

>
>Rick

Groetjes Albert

--
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#10178

From	jacko <jackokring@gmail.com>
Date	2012-03-16 17:09 -0700
Message-ID	<7695715.558.1331942973982.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbiz13>
In reply to	#9939

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:54:23 AM UTC, quiet_lad wrote:
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/

I think it's a good optio for audio fully custom, software, with small hardware cost.

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can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi?

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