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Groups > comp.lang.c > #20055 > unrolled thread

How would you design C's replacement?

Started byRui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
First post2012-04-29 17:17 +0100
Last post2012-05-03 12:37 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 253 — 38 participants

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Contents

  How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 17:17 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-29 18:44 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-29 22:20 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 15:32 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 00:37 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 18:30 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 13:43 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-29 23:45 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 22:12 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 13:06 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 08:36 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 00:17 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 01:05 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 07:36 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 13:39 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 23:06 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 18:11 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:36 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 00:24 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 17:08 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 19:15 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-05-01 03:06 +0000
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:18 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 12:14 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 16:53 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:17 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 17:24 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:44 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 12:18 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-29 11:10 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-04-29 18:27 +0000
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 13:54 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:07 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:23 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-04-30 00:41 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 07:30 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 16:29 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:26 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 21:27 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 08:49 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-04-30 00:42 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 19:40 +0200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-05-25 10:38 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-27 10:22 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? FireXware <none@none.invalid> - 2012-04-29 14:29 -0600
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 17:18 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:56 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 08:04 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-29 16:37 -0500
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-04-29 22:43 +0000
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 06:41 +0200
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-30 01:33 -0500
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 07:26 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 13:30 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 11:44 +1200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:25 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 18:23 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 06:18 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-05-02 20:25 +0000
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:10 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 20:34 +1200
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-04-30 01:01 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 10:08 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-04-30 08:22 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 12:09 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-01 00:23 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:40 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-05-02 20:15 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 17:17 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 12:44 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 16:28 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 23:50 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 13:52 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 13:44 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-01 08:34 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:22 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:14 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:35 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-04 00:44 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Leo Havmøller <rtxleh@nospam.nospam> - 2012-04-30 13:39 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 11:15 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:15 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-04-30 12:11 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:29 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 16:43 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:31 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 03:11 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 12:32 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:06 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 14:11 +0100
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:29 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:24 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:22 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 06:44 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:22 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-02 21:33 +0000
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:59 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-02 22:16 -0500
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-03 10:13 +0100
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-03 13:05 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 23:36 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 02:40 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 01:37 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-05-02 16:41 +0200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 02:54 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:18 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-02 20:27 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 01:22 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-05-04 00:41 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-05-04 08:41 +0000
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-05-07 01:11 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-07 07:18 -0400
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-07 05:41 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-07 09:24 -0400
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-07 09:31 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-10 15:37 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-04 08:16 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-04 09:49 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-04-30 14:25 -0400
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 22:19 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-04-30 14:04 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-01 00:33 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-04-30 15:43 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:17 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:15 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-01 07:12 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-05-01 10:41 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 17:39 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 12:46 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:41 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 00:22 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-01 15:53 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Quentin Pope <qp19433@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> - 2012-05-09 21:06 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-10 00:32 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-10 10:35 +1200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-09 16:18 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2012-05-10 02:45 +0000
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-10 16:18 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-11 03:21 -0500
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2012-05-11 15:55 +0000
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-13 17:39 +0100
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-14 00:08 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-13 21:24 +0100
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Marco <prenom_nomus@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-20 06:50 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-10 00:08 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-10 04:04 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-10 10:38 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-10 11:15 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 08:36 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 17:49 +0200
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:34 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:41 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 19:42 +0200
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 10:50 -0700
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 20:16 +0200
                            Trigraphs (was Re: How would you design C's replacement?) Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-14 11:49 -0400
                              Re: Trigraphs (was Re: How would you design C's replacement?) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 12:21 -0400
                                Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 09:50 -0700
                                  Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 13:05 -0400
                                    Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 10:24 -0700
                                      Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-14 11:56 -0700
                                        Re: Trigraphs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-14 21:00 +0200
                                          Re: Trigraphs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-14 16:37 -0500
                                            Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 17:58 -0400
                                              Re: Trigraphs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-14 21:05 -0700
                                                Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:19 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:05 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-17 22:04 +0000
                                        Re: Trigraphs Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-05-14 16:22 -0400
                                          Re: Trigraphs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-14 22:05 +0100
                                            Re: Trigraphs Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-05-14 22:31 -0400
                                              Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 21:17 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:42 -0700
                                    Re: Trigraphs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-14 13:33 -0700
                                      Re: Trigraphs Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-14 23:02 +0200
                                        Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 17:35 -0400
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 18:49 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-11 18:49 +0100
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 20:14 +0200
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 18:56 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-10 11:31 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 08:38 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:36 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 19:12 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-14 11:56 -0400
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-14 11:34 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-10 20:05 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-05-11 06:19 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:33 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-04-30 22:38 +0000
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 17:43 +1200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 09:39 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:21 +1200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 10:39 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:47 +1200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 08:10 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 14:37 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 08:17 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 07:48 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:32 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 23:07 +0200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 18:02 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-02 14:40 +0200
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 10:35 -0400
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-02 16:51 +0200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 11:44 -0700
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:23 -0700
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-03 12:14 +0200
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-03 13:38 +0200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 07:28 +1200
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 13:28 -0700
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 18:44 +1200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-03 00:56 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-02 16:04 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 17:14 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:10 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 17:52 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 02:37 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 07:29 -0400
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 12:19 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-05-01 18:02 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:43 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-05-01 22:52 +0200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:12 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:59 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 02:09 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:08 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 16:05 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 02:04 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-02 10:36 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 07:36 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:21 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 16:08 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:16 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2012-05-02 19:46 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:12 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-02 20:26 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:59 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-02 14:32 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:09 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 18:45 +1200
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-03 08:13 -0400
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-04 07:18 +1200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-05-13 00:15 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:22 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 03:09 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-03 03:55 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-03 12:45 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-03 13:15 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-03 13:41 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-03 17:51 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:37 -0400

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#20714 — Re: Trigraphs

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-14 11:56 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<kfnvcjy4mn2.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20709
Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:

> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> On 05/14/2012 12:50 PM, Ben Pfaff wrote:
>>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>>> 
>>>> On 05/14/2012 11:49 AM, Kenneth Brody wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Now, if you were to propose eliminating them from the language (by default, 
>>>>> at least), you still need a way to handle source that contains them.  I 
>>>>> would suggest something like:
>>>>>
>>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH (ON|OFF)
>>>>>
>>>>> The default would be "OFF".  Any source file that used trigraphs would 
>>>>> simply put:
>>>>>
>>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>>>>
>>>> A platform where trigraphs are actually needed (rare as those might be
>>>> nowadays) is likely to be one where "#" is not an available character.
>>>> That should be
>>>>
>>>> 	??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>>> 
>>> But that would only work if trigraphs were already on!
>>
>> That was my point, but I forgot to make it. One alternative is to create
>> a special case for source code files whose first three characters are
>> ??=. I don't approve of such special-casing, but it would be feasible.
>
> Well, they could use %:pragma instead.

Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma

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#20715 — Re: Trigraphs

Fromjacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Date2012-05-14 21:00 +0200
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<jorkne$son$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#20714
Le 14/05/12 20:56, Tim Rentsch a écrit :
>> Well, they could use %:pragma instead.
>
> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma

Or perhaps they *could* BUY THE CORRECT HARDWARE ?????????

Can anyone point out WHERE exists a computer that

1) Can't understand ASCII
2) Can't have a PC connected to it through the network

And no, 3270 do not count since any mainframe can be accessed from a PC.

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#20730 — Re: Trigraphs

FromRobert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com>
Date2012-05-14 16:37 -0500
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<eiu2r7t7v0nbs3q4f1tfe9j36r45dcahdo@4ax.com>
In reply to#20715
On Mon, 14 May 2012 21:00:02 +0200, jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
wrote:

>Le 14/05/12 20:56, Tim Rentsch a écrit :
>>> Well, they could use %:pragma instead.
>>
>> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
>
>Or perhaps they *could* BUY THE CORRECT HARDWARE ?????????
>
>Can anyone point out WHERE exists a computer that
>
>1) Can't understand ASCII
>2) Can't have a PC connected to it through the network
>
>And no, 3270 do not count since any mainframe can be accessed from a PC.


While you can certainly attach PCs to a mainframe, it certainly
doesn't integrate with the primary development environments.  That
being said, some care with the codepages goes a long way towards
dealing with the problem, but is far from foolproof (as in, moving
code around the world will often cause it to break for codepage
related reasons).

That being said, I think something like the "_pragma trigraphs(on)"
option mooted above would be a perfectly reasonable compromise.

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#20731 — Re: Trigraphs

FromJames Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Date2012-05-14 17:58 -0400
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<4FB18000.6000004@verizon.net>
In reply to#20730
On 05/14/2012 05:37 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
...
> That being said, I think something like the "_pragma trigraphs(on)"
> option mooted above would be a perfectly reasonable compromise.

You've got the syntax wrong. _Pragma("string literal") is equivalent to

	#pragma string literal

C99 was the first version of the standard to introduce standard-defined
pragmas, and it also established naming conventions which should be
adhered to by any additional pragmas that are proposed. Every standard
pragma has a name which is all capitals, and contains at least two
words, the first of which is "STDC". Those which turn a feature either
on or off do so by simply appending "ON" or "OFF" to the pragma's name.

Therefore, that should be _Pragma("STDC TRIGRAPHS ON")

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#20781 — Re: Trigraphs

FromKeith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Date2012-05-14 21:05 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<lnfwb2ks1e.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>
In reply to#20731
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> On 05/14/2012 05:37 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
> ...
>> That being said, I think something like the "_pragma trigraphs(on)"
>> option mooted above would be a perfectly reasonable compromise.
>
> You've got the syntax wrong. _Pragma("string literal") is equivalent to
>
> 	#pragma string literal
>
> C99 was the first version of the standard to introduce standard-defined
> pragmas, and it also established naming conventions which should be
> adhered to by any additional pragmas that are proposed. Every standard
> pragma has a name which is all capitals, and contains at least two
> words, the first of which is "STDC". Those which turn a feature either
> on or off do so by simply appending "ON" or "OFF" to the pragma's name.
>
> Therefore, that should be _Pragma("STDC TRIGRAPHS ON")

The standard says:

    A unary operator expression of the form:
        _Pragma ( string-literal )
    is processed as follows:
    [snip]

Which implies (I think) that _Pragma(...) may appear only in a context
where an expression is permitted.

In particular, it implies that you can't have a _Pragma as the first line of
a source file.

But the example, showing a way of rewriting a #pragma directive as an
equivalent _Pragma(), doesn't support that interpretation, nor does the
C99 Rationale.  The phrase "unary operator expression" is also a bit
odd; the grammatical construct is a "unary-expression".

I'll post to comp.std.c and see if I can get some clarification.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#20932 — Re: Trigraphs

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-17 13:19 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<kfnehqi4l3a.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20781
Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> On 05/14/2012 05:37 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
>> ...
>>> That being said, I think something like the "_pragma trigraphs(on)"
>>> option mooted above would be a perfectly reasonable compromise.
>>
>> You've got the syntax wrong. _Pragma("string literal") is equivalent to
>>
>> 	#pragma string literal
>>
>> C99 was the first version of the standard to introduce standard-defined
>> pragmas, and it also established naming conventions which should be
>> adhered to by any additional pragmas that are proposed. Every standard
>> pragma has a name which is all capitals, and contains at least two
>> words, the first of which is "STDC". Those which turn a feature either
>> on or off do so by simply appending "ON" or "OFF" to the pragma's name.
>>
>> Therefore, that should be _Pragma("STDC TRIGRAPHS ON")
>
> The standard says:
>
>     A unary operator expression of the form:
>         _Pragma ( string-literal )
>     is processed as follows:
>     [snip]
>
> Which implies (I think) that _Pragma(...) may appear only in a context
> where an expression is permitted.
>
> In particular, it implies that you can't have a _Pragma as the first line of
> a source file.
>
> But the example, showing a way of rewriting a #pragma directive as an
> equivalent _Pragma(), doesn't support that interpretation, nor does the
> C99 Rationale.  The phrase "unary operator expression" is also a bit
> odd; the grammatical construct is a "unary-expression".

I agree the phrasing is a little odd.  Despite that, I think
the meaning is clear enough, especially when read in conjunction
with other parts of the Standard describing the preprocessor
and what happens with _Pragma, and when.

> I'll post to comp.std.c and see if I can get some clarification.

I'd support a recommendation to add a clarifying footnote or two
to help fix this;  IMO nothing more than that is warranted.

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#20931 — Re: Trigraphs

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-17 13:05 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<kfnipfu4lql.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20715
jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> writes:

> Le 14/05/12 20:56, Tim Rentsch a @C3{A9}crit :
>>> Well, they could use %:pragma instead.
>>
>> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
>
> Or perhaps they *could* BUY THE CORRECT HARDWARE ?????????
>
> Can anyone point out WHERE exists a computer that
>
> 1) Can't understand ASCII
> 2) Can't have a PC connected to it through the network
>
> And no, 3270 do not count since any mainframe can be accessed from a PC.

I wasn't advocating anything about trigraphs, just
mentioning an alternate way to request a C pragma.

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#20947 — Re: Trigraphs

Fromjgk@panix.com (Joe keane)
Date2012-05-17 22:04 +0000
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<jp3sle$91e$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#20715
In article <jorkne$son$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
jacob navia  <jacob@jspamsink.org> wrote:
>Or perhaps they *could* BUY THE CORRECT HARDWARE ?????????

It's obvious that redefining ASCII codes was a stopgap.

It's obvious that ISO 8859-1 was a stopgap.

It's obvious that anything which fixes things for Europeans but does
nothing for the Koreans is not that hot.

Or perhaps they *could* BUY THE CORRECT SOFTWARE ?????????

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#20716 — Re: Trigraphs

FromWalter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Date2012-05-14 16:22 -0400
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<4FB16978.A6E1C5F4@bytecraft.com>
In reply to#20714

Tim Rentsch wrote:

> Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:
>
> > James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> >
> >> On 05/14/2012 12:50 PM, Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On 05/14/2012 11:49 AM, Kenneth Brody wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>> Now, if you were to propose eliminating them from the language (by default,
> >>>>> at least), you still need a way to handle source that contains them.  I
> >>>>> would suggest something like:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH (ON|OFF)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The default would be "OFF".  Any source file that used trigraphs would
> >>>>> simply put:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
> >>>>
> >>>> A platform where trigraphs are actually needed (rare as those might be
> >>>> nowadays) is likely to be one where "#" is not an available character.
> >>>> That should be
> >>>>
> >>>>    ??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
> >>>
> >>> But that would only work if trigraphs were already on!
> >>
> >> That was my point, but I forgot to make it. One alternative is to create
> >> a special case for source code files whose first three characters are
> >> ??=. I don't approve of such special-casing, but it would be feasible.
> >
> > Well, they could use %:pragma instead.
>
> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma

It seems like it would be easier to leave them alone.

Next, NEXT reason to change C

Changing a language established over 25 years is very difficult.

w..

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#20721 — Re: Trigraphs

From"BartC" <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2012-05-14 22:05 +0100
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<jors3c$4cr$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#20716
"Walter Banks" <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote in message 
news:4FB16978.A6E1C5F4@bytecraft.com...

> Tim Rentsch wrote:

>> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
>
> It seems like it would be easier to leave them alone.
>
> Next, NEXT reason to change C

That's hardly changing the language. It's barely tinkering with it.

> Changing a language established over 25 years is very difficult.

Other long-established languages don't seem to have much of a problem in 
keeping with the times (Fortran for example).

-- 
Bartc

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#20778 — Re: Trigraphs

FromWalter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Date2012-05-14 22:31 -0400
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<4FB1BFF7.EC0BB148@bytecraft.com>
In reply to#20721

BartC wrote:

> "Walter Banks" <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote in message
> news:4FB16978.A6E1C5F4@bytecraft.com...
>
> > Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
> >> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
> >
> > It seems like it would be easier to leave them alone.
> >
> > Next, NEXT reason to change C
>
> That's hardly changing the language. It's barely tinkering with it.
>
> > Changing a language established over 25 years is very difficult.
>
> Other long-established languages don't seem to have much of a problem in
> keeping with the times (Fortran for example).
>

I was joking to a point. This thread (Trigraphs) does demonstrate the
difficulty of making changes. Each simple change has implications ad side
effects

w..

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#20782 — Re: Trigraphs

FromBen Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu>
Date2012-05-14 21:17 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<87txzijcxe.fsf@blp.benpfaff.org>
In reply to#20778
Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:

> BartC wrote:
>
>> "Walter Banks" <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote in message
>> news:4FB16978.A6E1C5F4@bytecraft.com...
>>
>> > Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>
>> >> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
>> >
>> > It seems like it would be easier to leave them alone.
>> >
>> > Next, NEXT reason to change C
>>
>> That's hardly changing the language. It's barely tinkering with it.
>>
>> > Changing a language established over 25 years is very difficult.
>>
>> Other long-established languages don't seem to have much of a problem in
>> keeping with the times (Fortran for example).
>>
>
> I was joking to a point. This thread (Trigraphs) does demonstrate the
> difficulty of making changes. Each simple change has implications ad side
> effects

I think that this thread most effectively demonstrates the
difficulty of removing features.

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#20933 — Re: Trigraphs

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-17 13:42 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<kfnaa164jzo.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20716
Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:

> Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:
>>
>> > James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> >
>> >> On 05/14/2012 12:50 PM, Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> >>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 05/14/2012 11:49 AM, Kenneth Brody wrote:
>> >>>> ...
>> >>>>> Now, if you were to propose eliminating them from the language (by default,
>> >>>>> at least), you still need a way to handle source that contains them.  I
>> >>>>> would suggest something like:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH (ON|OFF)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The default would be "OFF".  Any source file that used trigraphs would
>> >>>>> simply put:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A platform where trigraphs are actually needed (rare as those might be
>> >>>> nowadays) is likely to be one where "#" is not an available character.
>> >>>> That should be
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    ??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>> >>>
>> >>> But that would only work if trigraphs were already on!
>> >>
>> >> That was my point, but I forgot to make it. One alternative is to create
>> >> a special case for source code files whose first three characters are
>> >> ??=. I don't approve of such special-casing, but it would be feasible.
>> >
>> > Well, they could use %:pragma instead.
>>
>> Or perhaps more simply, _Pragma
>
> It seems like it would be easier to leave them alone.  [snip]

Note that I wasn't advocating doing anything about trigraphs,
just mentioning an alternative to #pragma or %:pragma.

However, if people do want to do something about trigraphs,
there's an easy idea that doesn't break conformance and doesn't
need to wait on revising the Standard.

In almost all cases when a source files is using (ie, choosing
to use) trigraphs, the very first trigraph will be on a
preprocessor line, eg, ??=include or ??=ifndef.  Furthermore
the existence of such a line early in a source file makes
it highly likely that the author is intentionally using
trigraphs in that source file, not using them just by chance
or accident.

So, upon encounterting a trigraph, the implementation could give
a warning diagnostic if the first trigraph in that source file
were not a ??= on a valid preprocessor line.  The warning could
explain that an unexpected trigraph was encountered, and report
some compiler options to (a) disable the warning altogether, or
(b) disallow trigraph processing at all.  (Obviously there could
also be file-level pragmas for those who want more fine-grained
control.)  The warning would not prevent compilation or change
the semantics of trigraphs, just flag the unexpected uses.

If this were done, and done by default, most cases would work as
desired/expected, without having to know about trigraphs or learn
in advance about exotic compiler options.  Developers new to C
who didn't know about trigraphs would still be very unlikely to
stumble onto them wrongly, but would not be confused if or when
compiling other sources that use trigraphs deliberately.  Best of
all, this approach is one implementors can act on now, without
having to wait for any action or change as far as ISO C goes.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#20717 — Re: Trigraphs

FromKeith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Date2012-05-14 13:33 -0700
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<lnwr4elcyt.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>
In reply to#20708
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> On 05/14/2012 12:50 PM, Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> 
>>> On 05/14/2012 11:49 AM, Kenneth Brody wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Now, if you were to propose eliminating them from the language (by default, 
>>>> at least), you still need a way to handle source that contains them.  I 
>>>> would suggest something like:
>>>>
>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH (ON|OFF)
>>>>
>>>> The default would be "OFF".  Any source file that used trigraphs would 
>>>> simply put:
>>>>
>>>>      #pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>>>
>>> A platform where trigraphs are actually needed (rare as those might be
>>> nowadays) is likely to be one where "#" is not an available character.
>>> That should be
>>>
>>> 	??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
>> 
>> But that would only work if trigraphs were already on!
>
> That was my point, but I forgot to make it. One alternative is to create
> a special case for source code files whose first three characters are
> ??=. I don't approve of such special-casing, but it would be feasible.

I wouldn't want to require it to be the very first three characters
of the file; it should be able to follow empty lines, whitespace,
and comments.  And it probably should apply only to the current file,
not to any #included files.

Any change that disables trigraphs by default will break existing
code that depends on them.  Adding a single line to the top of each
affected source file *seems* easy enough, but managing all those
source code changes could be a nightmare.

On the other hand, perhaps the compatibility problem is more
theoretical than real.  If, say, C2020 disabled trigraphs by default
(with or without providing a way to enable them), it would only
break code on systems that (a) actually need trigraphs, and (b)
have compilers that are upgraded to support the C2020 standard.
In practice, that may well be the empty set.  And there's no reason
a C2020 compiler for such a platform couldn't have an extension
that solves the same problem trigraphs solve.  (I'm ignoring code
that deliberately uses trigraphs on systems that don't actually
require them; is there any significant amount of such code outside
test suites?)

One problem with

    ??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON

and similar suggestions is that they make code that uses them
incompatible with *earlier* versions of the standard.  You could
permit

    ??=if __STDC_VERSION__ >= 202001L
    ??=pragma STDC TRIGRAPH ON
    ??=endif

but that's even uglier.

Perhaps a stylized comment could be used to enable trigraphs; if the
first comment in a source file contains, say, "ENABLE TRIGRAPHS",
then trigraphs are enabled.

There are a multitude of possible solutions to the "trigraph
problem".  There seem to be exactly zero *clean* solutions, and I'm
beginning to think that the actual magnitude of the problem doesn't
justify any of them.  I think we're just going to have to live with
trigraphs -- unless the committee can be persuaded to just remove
them from the language altogether.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#20720 — Re: Trigraphs

FromJens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr>
Date2012-05-14 23:02 +0200
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<4FB172C8.6090607@loria.fr>
In reply to#20717
Am 14.05.2012 22:33, schrieb Keith Thompson:
> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
> I wouldn't want to require it to be the very first three characters
> of the file; it should be able to follow empty lines, whitespace,
> and comments.  And it probably should apply only to the current file,
> not to any #included files.

probably you just missed this elsethread, but there is a reasonable
solution in just using _Pragma, so such exceptional parse rules are
really not necessary.

Jens

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#20729 — Re: Trigraphs

FromJames Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Date2012-05-14 17:35 -0400
SubjectRe: Trigraphs
Message-ID<4FB17AB9.6050501@verizon.net>
In reply to#20720
On 05/14/2012 05:02 PM, Jens Gustedt wrote:
> Am 14.05.2012 22:33, schrieb Keith Thompson:
>> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> I wouldn't want to require it to be the very first three characters
>> of the file; it should be able to follow empty lines, whitespace,
>> and comments.  And it probably should apply only to the current file,
>> not to any #included files.
> 
> probably you just missed this elsethread, but there is a reasonable
> solution in just using _Pragma, so such exceptional parse rules are
> really not necessary.

You responded to a message from Keith, but the only text that you quoted
was written by me, so I assume it was directed at me.

I knew about _Pragma(), but didn't bother thinking about it in this
context, I was concentrating mainly on pointing out the problem with
Kenneth Brody's suggestion. That there are better work-arounds for the
problem is something I should have thought about, and mentioned - but I
didn't.

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#20639

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-11 18:49 -0700
Message-ID<kfn39766ud7.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20602
jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> writes:

> Le 11/05/12 18:41, Tim Rentsch a @C3{A9}crit :
> .  What I did say was that anyone
>> who is concerned about undesired trigraphs can easily prevent
>> them while still using compilers that accept trigraphs.
>
> Easily?
>
> Who knows about trigraphs?
>
> How can you knwow that a trigraph in a comment van make for a syntax
> error 365 lines later?
>
>
> int fn(void)
> {
>   for (int i=0; i<100;i++) // is this is correct??/
>    {
>     .. 365 lines of code
>    }
> }
>
> This code produces
> /tmp $ g++ trigraphs.c
> trigraphs.c:4:49: warning: trigraph ??/ ignored, use -trigraphs to enable
>
> So the compiler is non conforming  
>
> Most compilers do ignore trigraphs but many don't. [snip]

Again, the scenario you're describing is not what I was
suggesting:  'while still using compilers that accept
trigraphs.'  Please try to read more carefully.

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#20603

FromGareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com>
Date2012-05-11 18:49 +0100
Message-ID<87y5oyy5ec.fsf@gmail.com>
In reply to#20600
Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:

> Please read my comments again.  I didn't propose, nor do I propose,
> any such thing

It's Jacob. What you actually said is pretty much irrelevant.

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#20609

Fromjacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Date2012-05-11 20:14 +0200
Message-ID<jojkui$kji$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#20603
Le 11/05/12 19:49, Gareth Owen a écrit :
> Tim Rentsch<txr@alumni.caltech.edu>  writes:
>
>> Please read my comments again.  I didn't propose, nor do I propose,
>> any such thing
>
> It's Jacob. What you actually said is pretty much irrelevant.

You are like that. What I actually said is that it is not the
compiler's task to correct the language.

Mr Rentsch said:

"
What I did say was that anyone
who is concerned about undesired trigraphs can easily prevent
them while still using compilers that accept trigraphs.
"
No, it is not easy (you have to KNOW about trigraphs in the first place)
then it is not the task of compilers to correct the bugs in the
language!

The fact that that option EXISTS is already the proof that the bug in 
the language exists.

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#20640

FromTim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Date2012-05-11 18:56 -0700
Message-ID<kfny5oy5fhx.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>
In reply to#20609
jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> writes:

> Le 11/05/12 19:49, Gareth Owen a @C3{A9}crit :
>> Tim Rentsch<txr@alumni.caltech.edu>  writes:
>>
>>> Please read my comments again.  I didn't propose, nor do I propose,
>>> any such thing
>>
>> It's Jacob. What you actually said is pretty much irrelevant.
>
> You are like that. What I actually said is that it is not the
> compiler's task to correct the language.
>
> Mr Rentsch said:
>
> "
> What I did say was that anyone
> who is concerned about undesired trigraphs can easily prevent
> them while still using compilers that accept trigraphs.
> "
> No, it is not easy (you have to KNOW about trigraphs in the first place)
> [snip]

Surely anyone who is concerned about trigraphs already knows
about them.  It would be nice if you would respond to what I
actually write, rather than just repeating your "trigraphs
are bad" talking points.

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