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Groups > comp.lang.c > #172150 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-08-13 06:42 -0700 |
| Last post | 2023-08-14 21:14 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 102 — 27 participants |
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Piping to stdin Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 06:42 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 13:55 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 07:07 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-08-13 15:21 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 07:31 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2023-08-13 16:40 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-13 16:08 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-13 16:07 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2023-08-13 17:26 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-13 19:09 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-13 20:45 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-08-13 20:53 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-13 20:47 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-14 00:59 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-14 03:07 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-14 03:12 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-08-14 15:14 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2023-08-15 12:50 +1000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-15 04:59 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 23:15 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 08:50 +0100
Dealing with weird filenames (Was: Piping to stdin) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-15 08:10 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-08-15 15:34 +0200
Re: Piping to stdin Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 19:50 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-15 20:16 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2023-08-16 06:34 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-16 17:39 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-16 17:37 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-16 17:43 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 13:35 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-17 14:51 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-08-16 01:37 -0400
Re: Piping to stdin David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-08-16 13:14 +0200
Re: Piping to stdin Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2023-08-15 12:08 -0600
Re: Piping to stdin Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 09:32 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-16 17:27 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-08-15 14:30 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Giovanni <lsodgf0@home.net.it> - 2023-08-15 17:14 +0200
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-15 15:48 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-08-15 16:12 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-15 16:15 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-08-15 16:22 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-17 10:26 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2023-08-17 14:23 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-17 15:25 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-15 17:33 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-15 23:32 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-17 10:32 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-17 14:57 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-17 05:14 -0700
Wrecking a good thing? (Was: Piping to stdin) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-17 14:09 +0000
Re: Wrecking a good thing? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-18 00:39 +0300
Re: Wrecking a good thing? (Was: Piping to stdin) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-08-18 11:17 +0200
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-17 15:14 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-08-17 08:58 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-17 13:52 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-17 15:20 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-08-17 13:43 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-08-18 11:28 +0200
Re: Piping to stdin Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-08-17 21:52 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-19 13:33 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Oğuz <oguzismailuysal@gmail.com> - 2023-08-19 16:15 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-19 14:48 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-20 17:24 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-20 19:21 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2023-08-20 21:57 +0100
What language is this? (Was: Piping to stdin) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-20 22:33 +0000
Re: What language is this? (Was: Piping to stdin) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-21 01:26 +0000
Re: What language is this? (Was: Piping to stdin) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-21 02:57 +0000
Re: What language is this? Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2023-08-21 17:16 +0100
Re: What language is this? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-21 19:10 +0000
Re: What language is this? Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2023-08-21 20:31 +0100
Re: What language is this? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-21 20:29 +0000
Re: What language is this? Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2023-08-21 21:48 +0100
Re: What language is this? (Was: Piping to stdin) Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-08-21 06:50 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-08-19 21:14 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-15 23:24 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2023-08-15 20:50 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-16 17:11 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2023-08-16 15:25 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-16 19:29 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-17 14:49 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-08-16 03:20 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-15 18:33 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin "Nuno Silva" <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 09:45 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-13 16:06 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 17:09 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-14 01:03 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-14 04:00 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2023-08-14 12:20 +0300
Re: Piping to stdin Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 02:44 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 03:54 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-14 11:22 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-08-14 15:49 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-08-14 17:19 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2023-08-14 17:21 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-15 08:02 -0700
Re: Piping to stdin John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-08-14 03:15 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-08-14 11:28 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-14 15:41 +0000
Re: Piping to stdin Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 22:02 +0100
Re: Piping to stdin scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-08-14 21:14 +0000
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| From | Muttley@dastardlyhq.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-15 16:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ubg8a8$2t20l$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172311 |
On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >> But do they know that??? > >"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >useful. I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came Windows.
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| From | kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-15 16:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ubg8no$2t2as$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172312 |
In comp.unix.programmer Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) > kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>> But do they know that??? >> >>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>useful. > > I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came > Windows. Filenames having spaces versus the stdin convention '-' is comparing two things that are very different. The first one is just a way to name files or directories. The second one is an age-old Unix convention that has nothing to do with naming real files or directories. It is best to not to confuse these two distinct ideas. br, KK
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| From | Muttley@dastardlyhq.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 10:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ubksl2$3o8ao$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172313 |
On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:22:16 -0000 (UTC) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >In comp.unix.programmer Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) >> kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>>> But do they know that??? >>> >>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>>useful. >> >> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came >> Windows. > >Filenames having spaces versus the stdin convention '-' is >comparing two things that are very different. > >The first one is just a way to name files or directories. > >The second one is an age-old Unix convention that has >nothing to do with naming real files or directories. > >It is best to not to confuse these two distinct ideas. They both cause problems.
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| From | kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 14:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ublago$3q43k$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172441 |
In comp.unix.programmer Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote: > They both cause problems. So do nuclear bombs and fentynyl, yet they have not enough in common to make a sensible comparison between them. Similar reasoning applies to filenames with spaces and the '-' stdin convention. Many people like the former and are justified in doing so, but nobody has the desire to use '-' as a filename. I am tired of making this obvious point over and over, so if it does not sink in now, I have to give up. br, KK
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 15:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <iZqDM.215513$uLJb.162159@fx41.iad> |
| In reply to | #172460 |
kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) writes: >In comp.unix.programmer Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote: >> They both cause problems. > >So do nuclear bombs and fentynyl, yet they have >not enough in common to make a sensible comparison >between them. > >Similar reasoning applies to filenames with spaces >and the '-' stdin convention. Many people like >the former and are justified in doing so, but >nobody has the desire to use '-' as a filename. > >I am tired of making this obvious point over and >over, so if it does not sink in now, I have to >give up. It's like arguments about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin - the use of a single hyphen to denote stdin will _never_ change, it is pointless to assume otherwise.
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| From | Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-15 17:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20230815102503.811@kylheku.com> |
| In reply to | #172312 |
On 2023-08-15, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC)
> kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote:
>>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>> But do they know that???
>>
>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it,
>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-'
>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive
>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything
>>useful.
>
> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came
> Windows.
Windows users typically do not name files "-" either,
in spite of there being spaces in file and directory names.
A program that handles - specially will not be confused when
that occurs in a path like /abc/-/def or ./- or -/ and other
possibilities.
Windows has worse problems, like issues if you try to make
a file called PRN in any directory.
"* Do not use the following reserved names for the name of a file:
CON, PRN, AUX, NUL, COM0, COM1, COM2, COM3, COM4, COM5, COM6, COM7,
COM8, COM9, LPT0, LPT1, LPT2, LPT3, LPT4, LPT5, LPT6, LPT7, LPT8,
and LPT9. Also avoid these names followed immediately by an
extension; for example, NUL.txt and NUL.tar.gz are both equivalent
to NUL. For more information, see Namespaces."
In Microsoft Teams, channel names cannot have MS-DOS device names:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoftteams/limits-specifications-teams
"Channel names can't contain the following characters or words:
[...]
Words forms, CON, CONIN$, CONOUT$, PRN, AUX, NUL, COM1 to COM9, LPT1
to LPT9, desktop.ini, _vti_
LOL ...
--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
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| From | Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-15 23:32 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87o7j82gix.fsf@fatphil.org> |
| In reply to | #172312 |
Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) > kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>> But do they know that??? >> >>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>useful. > > I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came > Windows. Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for example. MS Windows didn't allow spaces until Windows 95. I remember the Apple advert at the time - it was a double-page spread which basically just said: C:\NGRTLTNS.W95 in a gajillion-point high font. I pulled that out of a newspaper and had it on my wall at work. Not because I was an Apple fanboi, far from it, but my disdain for all things MS Windows was already entrenched, and I was being forced to use it for the not-the-actual-work part of my job (which was on Sun workstations). Phil -- We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization. -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
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| From | Muttley@dastardlyhq.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 10:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ubkt02$3o9rp$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172335 |
On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 23:32:22 +0300 Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: >Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) >> kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>>> But do they know that??? >>> >>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>>useful. >> >> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came >> Windows. > >Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix >filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for >example. Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would use spaces and non printing characters. >MS Windows didn't allow spaces until Windows 95. I remember the Apple DOS didn't like filenames more than 8 characters long and required a TLA. So what? It has become a standard in windows to use spaces in filenames no doubt due to the hopeless command line interface so there was no necessity to play nice with command line tools that by default use whitespace as field seperators. >had it on my wall at work. Not because I was an Apple fanboi, far >from it, but my disdain for all things MS Windows was already >entrenched, and I was being forced to use it for the not-the-actual-work >part of my job (which was on Sun workstations). Apple arguably are even worse right now - case aware but case insensitive unless you use wildcards on the command line when suddenly case matters again. Hopeless. eg: fenris$ touch HELLO fenris$ ls hello hello fenris$ ls H* HELLO fenris$ ls h* ls: h*: No such file or directory
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| From | Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 14:57 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87ttsxzxs7.fsf@fatphil.org> |
| In reply to | #172442 |
Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 23:32:22 +0300 > Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: >>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: >>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) >>> kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>>>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>>>> But do they know that??? >>>> >>>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>>>useful. >>> >>> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came >>> Windows. >> >>Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix >>filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for >>example. > > Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > use spaces and non printing characters. > >>MS Windows didn't allow spaces until Windows 95. I remember the Apple > > DOS didn't like filenames more than 8 characters long and required a TLA. > So what? > > It has become a standard in windows to use spaces in filenames no doubt due > to the hopeless command line interface so there was no necessity to play nice > with command line tools that by default use whitespace as field seperators. > >>had it on my wall at work. Not because I was an Apple fanboi, far >>from it, but my disdain for all things MS Windows was already >>entrenched, and I was being forced to use it for the not-the-actual-work >>part of my job (which was on Sun workstations). > > Apple arguably are even worse right now - case aware but case insensitive > unless you use wildcards on the command line when suddenly case matters again. > Hopeless. > > eg: > fenris$ touch HELLO > fenris$ ls hello > hello > fenris$ ls H* > HELLO > fenris$ ls h* > ls: h*: No such file or directory That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? Mind geboggled, Phil -- We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization. -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
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| From | Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 05:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c0421064-01a0-44a1-8812-890bdc124b97n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #172448 |
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 2:58:01 PM UTC+3, Phil Carmody wrote: > Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes: > > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 23:32:22 +0300 > > Phil Carmody <pc+u...@asdf.org> wrote: > >>Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes: > >>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) > >>> kal...@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: > >>>>Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote: > >>>>> But do they know that??? > >>>> > >>>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, > >>>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' > >>>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive > >>>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything > >>>>useful. > >>> > >>> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came > >>> Windows. > >> > >>Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix > >>filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for > >>example. > > > > Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > > use spaces and non printing characters. > > > >>MS Windows didn't allow spaces until Windows 95. I remember the Apple > > > > DOS didn't like filenames more than 8 characters long and required a TLA. > > So what? > > > > It has become a standard in windows to use spaces in filenames no doubt due > > to the hopeless command line interface so there was no necessity to play nice > > with command line tools that by default use whitespace as field seperators. > > > >>had it on my wall at work. Not because I was an Apple fanboi, far > >>from it, but my disdain for all things MS Windows was already > >>entrenched, and I was being forced to use it for the not-the-actual-work > >>part of my job (which was on Sun workstations). > > > > Apple arguably are even worse right now - case aware but case insensitive > > unless you use wildcards on the command line when suddenly case matters again. > > Hopeless. > > > > eg: > > fenris$ touch HELLO > > fenris$ ls hello > > hello > > fenris$ ls H* > > HELLO > > fenris$ ls h* > > ls: h*: No such file or directory > That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being > quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation > of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live > with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? > > Mind geboggled, > Phil > -- > We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have > gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast > aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization. > -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/ Most computer users don't use command line. More so, I would think that most computer users do not know that command line exists. I'd guess that if shown command line many of them would say that it's people like us that continue to insist on using command line are suffering from some type of unhealthy mental syndrome.
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| From | gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 14:09 +0000 |
| Subject | Wrecking a good thing? (Was: Piping to stdin) |
| Message-ID | <ubl9nc$3md6c$1@news.xmission.com> |
| In reply to | #172448 |
In article <87ttsxzxs7.fsf@fatphil.org>, Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: ... >> ls: h*: No such file or directory > >That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being >quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation >of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live >with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? Kinda hate to disagree with ya there, but running Linux on Apple hardware is like buying a BMW, ripping out the engine, and changing it into a go-kart. Now, before you think I'm some Apple Fanboy, let me assure you that just the opposite is true. I run all Linux, but I consider it wrong to pay more than $100 for the box upon which I run Linux. That's why I'm all Raspberry Pi nowadays. But if you've paid Apple's exhorbitant fee to buy their hardware, then you might as well be running their OS. I don't want to have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's on this, but I assume you get what I mean. If you like Linux, you should not be paying Apple prices for your hardware. Or, to put it another way, Apple stuff (hardware and software) is for people who like that sort of thing. And they do indeed like it. By the way, the car analogy is not accidental. I believe that the more you pay for a car, the more problems you will have with it. You are literally paying for the problems. And again, there are people who like that. So, again, paying lots for a car is for people who like that sort of thing. And they do indeed like it. -- The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4 lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL: http://user.xmission.com/~gazelle/Sigs/IceCream
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| From | Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-18 00:39 +0300 |
| Subject | Re: Wrecking a good thing? |
| Message-ID | <87edk1z6uh.fsf@fatphil.org> |
| In reply to | #172457 |
gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes: > In article <87ttsxzxs7.fsf@fatphil.org>, > Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: > ... >>> ls: h*: No such file or directory >> >>That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being >>quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation >>of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live >>with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? > > Kinda hate to disagree with ya there, but running Linux on Apple hardware > is like buying a BMW, ripping out the engine, and changing it into a go-kart. > > Now, before you think I'm some Apple Fanboy, let me assure you that just > the opposite is true. I run all Linux, but I consider it wrong to pay more > than $100 for the box upon which I run Linux. That's why I'm all Raspberry > Pi nowadays. > > But if you've paid Apple's exhorbitant fee to buy their hardware, then you > might as well be running their OS. Hahahah. Nah, never paid a penny. It was a "sponsorship" from Apple. Top of the range kit at the time too. All I had to do was write fast code and not insult them in public. Managed for several years. Oh - my code ran faster under linux than OSX. The apple compiler seemed to never want to use all 32 of the FP registers (and, more bizarrely, the register it would mysteriously forget existed wasn't always the same one). I later worked for Freescale and had access to their internal tools, and could see how good or bad a job the various compilers were at keeping the pipelines full, and it was clear that Apple weren't as smart as they thought they were. Phil -- We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization. -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-18 11:17 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Wrecking a good thing? (Was: Piping to stdin) |
| Message-ID | <ubncuh$6v6k$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172457 |
On 17/08/2023 16:09, Kenny McCormack wrote: > In article <87ttsxzxs7.fsf@fatphil.org>, > Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: > ... >>> ls: h*: No such file or directory >> >> That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being >> quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation >> of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live >> with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? > > Kinda hate to disagree with ya there, but running Linux on Apple hardware > is like buying a BMW, ripping out the engine, and changing it into a go-kart. > > Now, before you think I'm some Apple Fanboy, let me assure you that just > the opposite is true. I run all Linux, but I consider it wrong to pay more > than $100 for the box upon which I run Linux. That's why I'm all Raspberry > Pi nowadays. > > But if you've paid Apple's exhorbitant fee to buy their hardware, then you > might as well be running their OS. I don't want to have to dot all the I's > and cross all the T's on this, but I assume you get what I mean. If you > like Linux, you should not be paying Apple prices for your hardware. > > Or, to put it another way, Apple stuff (hardware and software) is for > people who like that sort of thing. And they do indeed like it. > I disagree completely. Apple made good quality hardware, with a style that many people like. (I personally do not, and have never owned anything Apple.) Sure, you pay a premium for it, but that's the case for a lot of hardware - if you draw a graph of processor speed against processor price, you'll easily see a point where you pay a lot of extra cash for a very small increase in price. Yet for some people, that large increase is worth it. So your Apple hardware might be twice the price for a 10% thinner and lighter laptop. But if that's what you want, go for it - just as it is fine to want far lower prices and accept slower or weaker hardware. Then if someone decides that they want the Apple hardware, they've got the money, they have no moral qualms about paying the high markup Apple charges (some people have strong opinions about that kind of thing), that's fine - they've bought the Apple hardware. And if they decide that they prefer Linux (or Windows) to MacOS, then installing their preferred system makes the system better - it increases the value to them. It would be absurd to use an OS that is inferior (at least in that person's view) just because they had paid for it! You would not expect a Linux fan to use the Windows installation that comes with most off-the-shelf PC's - why would you expect them to use MacOS ? Case in point - Linus Torvalds used a MacBook running Linux as his main PC for a while, because the hardware (the screen in particular) was better than alternative laptops.
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| From | Muttley@dastardlyhq.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 15:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ubldfs$3qles$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172448 |
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 14:57:44 +0300 Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: >Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: >> Apple arguably are even worse right now - case aware but case insensitive >> unless you use wildcards on the command line when suddenly case matters >again. >> Hopeless. >> >> eg: >> fenris$ touch HELLO >> fenris$ ls hello >> hello >> fenris$ ls H* >> HELLO >> fenris$ ls h* >> ls: h*: No such file or directory > >That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being It is, its a cut and paste from the terminal. >quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation >of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live >with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? I bought a Mac because I wanted a unix box that I could just switch on and get coding rather than mess about installing some linux distro and hope the bits all work. Plus MacOS has a bonus of lots of high quality apps on the App Store. Though tbh if Solaris workstations were still a thing I'd have bought one of them instead.
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| From | Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 08:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <435f14e2-0c10-4045-b514-5a53040bad3an@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #172448 |
On Thursday, 17 August 2023 at 14:58:01 UTC+3, Phil Carmody wrote: > Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes: > > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 23:32:22 +0300 > > Phil Carmody <pc+u...@asdf.org> wrote: > >>Mut...@dastardlyhq.com writes: > >>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) > >>> kal...@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: > >>>>Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote: > >>>>> But do they know that??? > >>>> > >>>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, > >>>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' > >>>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive > >>>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything > >>>>useful. > >>> > >>> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came > >>> Windows. > >> > >>Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix > >>filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for > >>example. > > > > Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > > use spaces and non printing characters. > > > >>MS Windows didn't allow spaces until Windows 95. I remember the Apple > > > > DOS didn't like filenames more than 8 characters long and required a TLA. > > So what? > > > > It has become a standard in windows to use spaces in filenames no doubt due > > to the hopeless command line interface so there was no necessity to play nice > > with command line tools that by default use whitespace as field seperators. > > > >>had it on my wall at work. Not because I was an Apple fanboi, far > >>from it, but my disdain for all things MS Windows was already > >>entrenched, and I was being forced to use it for the not-the-actual-work > >>part of my job (which was on Sun workstations). > > > > Apple arguably are even worse right now - case aware but case insensitive > > unless you use wildcards on the command line when suddenly case matters again. > > Hopeless. > > > > eg: > > fenris$ touch HELLO > > fenris$ ls hello > > hello > > fenris$ ls H* > > HELLO > > fenris$ ls h* > > ls: h*: No such file or directory > > That I didn't know. Wow - if that's an actual interactive session being > quoted, that's frightening. Thanks for reminding me why my installation > of linux on my Apple G5 box wasn't moment too soon. How can people live > with such wrongthink? Stockholm Syndrome? > Software developers are not humans, but engineers. Need to build for iPhone so you use mac. Actually device itself is quite good, only the OS is bit garbage. Mixed case sensitivity / insensitivity is "feature" of HFS+ filesystem. Majority of software aren't made to expect something so strange. So number of common tools can be confused. But ... confusing tools can be avoided and pranksters calmed down.
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| From | Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 13:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20230817065027.422@kylheku.com> |
| In reply to | #172442 |
On 2023-08-17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote: > Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > use spaces and non printing characters. That's simply false. 0 is the null terminator and is not actually part of the name. The path-component-separating slash cannot be contained in a path component; there is no escape mechanism to include it. POSIX defines a set of characters which are recommended for use in file names for portability; it is wise for applications and users to stick to that. -- TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
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| From | Muttley@dastardlyhq.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 15:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ublds9$3qned$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172453 |
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 13:52:23 -0000 (UTC) Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> wrote: >On 2023-08-17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote: >> Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > >> use spaces and non printing characters. > >That's simply false. 0 is the null terminator and is not actually part >of the name. The path-component-separating slash cannot be contained in >a path component; there is no escape mechanism to include it. Ok, there are a couple of exceptions. Point still stands. >POSIX defines a set of characters which are recommended for use in file >names for portability; it is wise for applications and users to stick to >that. But they don't have to and when UTF8 filenames get used things can get messy on non UTF8 terminals.
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| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 13:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87jzttjt7g.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> |
| In reply to | #172453 |
Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
> On 2023-08-17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would
>> use spaces and non printing characters.
>
> That's simply false. 0 is the null terminator and is not actually part
> of the name. The path-component-separating slash cannot be contained in
> a path component; there is no escape mechanism to include it.
>
> POSIX defines a set of characters which are recommended for use in file
> names for portability; it is wise for applications and users to stick to
> that.
https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_282
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . _ -
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Will write code for food.
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-18 11:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ubndk1$71ua$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #172453 |
On 17/08/2023 15:52, Kaz Kylheku wrote: > On 2023-08-17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote: >> Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would >> use spaces and non printing characters. Only an idiot would think one rule fits all use-cases. > > That's simply false. 0 is the null terminator and is not actually part > of the name. The path-component-separating slash cannot be contained in > a path component; there is no escape mechanism to include it. > > POSIX defines a set of characters which are recommended for use in file > names for portability; it is wise for applications and users to stick to > that. > It is even wiser to use characters that are appropriate for the task in hand. If you are making software that will be shared amongst a wide variety of systems, stick to ASCII letters, digits, and underscore - that will work on everything, including Windows. If you are writing a document in Thai that will be read by Thai speakers on Thai computers, name the document in Thai using Thai script. It's not hard to handle "complicated" filenames from the command line, outside a few pathological cases (like "-"). Sensible filenames are fine, even with spaces, brackets, or non-ASCII letters. If those features are helpful to the main use of the names for the files in question, use them. If they are unhelpful, don't use them. Thus it makes sense to avoid inconvenient characters in the names and paths of programs, and you'll very rarely want them in program source code names or directories. But they are common and useful for things like document filenames.
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-08-17 21:52 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <87v8dde6j3.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #172442 |
Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 23:32:22 +0300 > Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote: >>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes: >>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:12:19 -0000 (UTC) >>> kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) wrote: >>>>Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote: >>>>> But do they know that??? >>>> >>>>"They" probably don't know it. But let's face it, >>>>nobody really wants to create a file having '-' >>>>filename on purpose. The filename is not descriptive >>>>at all, it would be just an insane choice for anything >>>>useful. >>> >>> I used to think the same thing about spaces in filenames. Then along came >>> Windows. >> >>Your memory if flawed. Spaces were always allowed in unix >>filenames. Often used to hide things in plain sight on FTP sites, for >>example. > > Any character from 0-255 is allowed in unix filenames but only an idiot would > use spaces and non printing characters. To some extent it depends on the file system, and to some extent it's down to the kernel, but I don't know of any Unix/FS combination that permits 0 (null) bytes in file names. I can't see how it could work. And almost all file systems will prohibit the use of / in a file name, though I've heard you can trick NFS into taking it. Some file systems (depending on mount options) can have complex rules such as rejecting any name with an invalid UTF-8 sequence. -- Ben.
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