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Groups > comp.lang.c > #384794 > unrolled thread

C23 thoughts and opinions

Started byDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
First post2024-05-22 18:55 +0200
Last post2024-05-25 16:05 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 542 — 23 participants

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Contents

  C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-22 18:55 +0200
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 14:42 -0300
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-22 22:11 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 17:26 -0300
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 14:17 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 09:38 -0300
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-23 17:08 +0000
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 16:06 -0300
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:11 +0200
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 13:21 -0300
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 14:49 -0700
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 11:03 +0200
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 14:17 -0300
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 12:45 -0700
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 17:06 -0300
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 13:19 -0700
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 21:27 -0300
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 17:46 -0700
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 08:33 -0300
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 16:51 +0200
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 16:34 -0700
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 13:05 +0200
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 08:19 -0300
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 17:14 +0200
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 02:09 +0100
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-06-06 15:01 -0300
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 15:53 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 22:21 -0300
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-23 13:11 +0100
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 09:43 -0700
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 16:19 +0200
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:25 +0200
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 13:06 -0700
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 15:45 +0200
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 18:29 -0700
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 13:11 +0200
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 15:58 -0700
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 13:09 +0200
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 12:51 +0100
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 16:18 +0300
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 16:25 +0100
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 19:35 +0300
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 19:01 +0100
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 23:26 +0300
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 22:27 +0100
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 19:19 +0100
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 23:06 +0300
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 00:49 +0000
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 19:54 -0700
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-27 11:10 +0200
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 23:59 +0300
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-26 22:52 +0100
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 16:20 -0700
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 00:48 +0000
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-27 11:05 +0300
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 10:12 -0300
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 16:17 -0700
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-27 13:42 +0200
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-27 17:33 -0700
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-28 13:52 +0200
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 13:21 -0700
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 23:37 +0300
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 10:02 +0200
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 14:30 -0700
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-14 23:39 +0100
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-15 19:17 +0200
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-15 20:27 +0100
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-15 22:39 +0000
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-16 00:20 +0100
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-16 01:16 +0000
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 12:31 -0700
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-17 00:03 +0000
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-16 16:54 +0200
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-16 20:00 +0100
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-17 10:49 +0200
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-17 13:18 +0300
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-15 17:58 +0200
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-15 22:37 +0000
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-16 16:55 +0200
                                        Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 16:48 -0700
                                          Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-17 11:42 +0200
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 17:19 -0700
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-18 04:19 +0000
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 22:39 -0700
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-18 15:54 +0200
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 15:00 -0700
                                                  Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-19 09:37 +0200
                                                    Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-19 10:17 +0000
                                                      Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-19 13:44 +0300
                                                        Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-19 11:57 +0100
                                                        Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-19 13:46 +0000
                                                          Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-19 18:02 +0300
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-19 07:25 +0000
                                                  Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-19 10:49 +0200
                                                    Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-21 07:13 +0000
                                                      Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-21 13:06 +0200
                                                        Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-21 22:48 +0000
                                                          Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-22 13:40 +0200
                                                      Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-21 10:15 -0400
                                                  Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 02:32 -0700
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-18 04:19 +0000
                                          Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-06-17 11:41 +0100
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-06-17 14:57 +0100
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 18:57 -0700
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-18 08:12 +0000
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-06-18 16:14 +0100
                                          Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-17 14:21 +0100
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 19:20 -0700
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-17 22:39 -0700
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-18 12:39 +0300
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-18 11:28 +0100
                                                  Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 11:12 -0700
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-18 17:20 +0200
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 11:04 -0700
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-20 06:51 +0000
                                            Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-18 09:50 +0000
                                              Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-18 13:56 +0000
                                                Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-18 17:21 +0200
                                                  Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-06-18 19:25 +0100
                                                    Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-06-18 19:38 +0100
                                                    Re: Hex string literals (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-21 22:49 +0000
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-28 00:20 +0000
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-27 17:59 -0700
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-28 15:42 +0000
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 13:44 -0700
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 05:36 +0100
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-28 15:53 +0000
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 00:44 +0000
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-27 01:55 +0100
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 02:48 +0000
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-27 14:03 +0100
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-28 02:45 +0000
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-28 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-29 04:17 +0000
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 06:00 +0100
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 13:58 +0200
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 17:20 +0100
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-30 02:32 +0000
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 11:09 +0300
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 13:43 +0200
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-01 01:45 +0000
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-30 14:34 +0100
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 17:08 +0300
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-30 15:48 +0100
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 18:03 +0300
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 13:55 +0100
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 16:19 +0300
                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 16:28 +0300
                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 16:48 +0300
                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 15:04 +0100
                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 17:34 +0300
                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 19:03 +0100
                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-31 18:36 +0000
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 22:15 +0100
                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-01 01:25 +0000
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-01 11:24 +0100
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 05:17 -0700
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-01 15:08 +0000
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 17:22 -0700
                                                                              objcopy -I binary etc... Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-06 14:56 +0300
                                                                                Re: objcopy -I binary etc... Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-06 07:44 -0700
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-01 22:51 +0300
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-01 15:24 +0200
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-01 19:59 +0100
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 04:00 +0000
                                                                        Re: Correct objcopy Usage (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 04:33 +0000
                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-06-01 03:37 +0200
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-01 11:09 +0100
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-06-01 13:59 +0200
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 17:26 -0700
                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-02 01:11 +0300
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-02 00:39 +0100
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-02 03:06 +0300
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-06 14:43 +0300
                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-31 21:42 +0200
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-31 21:11 +0000
                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-06-06 15:38 -0500
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-06 21:38 +0000
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 00:51 -0500
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-07 09:04 +0000
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 10:20 -0500
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 10:22 -0500
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-07 00:53 +0000
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 16:58 -0500
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-08 03:08 +0000
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-08 00:04 -0500
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-08 08:27 +0000
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 14:14 +0200
                                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 14:07 -0500
                                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 08:53 +0200
                                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 03:13 -0500
                                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 10:26 +0200
                                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 03:38 -0500
                                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-15 22:42 +0000
                                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 20:42 -0500
                                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-16 03:15 +0000
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-08 13:09 +0000
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-09 00:46 +0000
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 11:19 +0300
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-08 19:28 +0100
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-08 14:52 -0500
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 12:40 +0300
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-09 11:20 +0100
                                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 14:12 +0300
                                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 14:44 +0300
                                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-09 17:32 +0100
                                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 20:00 +0300
                                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-09 21:06 +0100
                                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-09 23:40 +0300
                                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-09 22:49 +0100
                                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-10 01:06 +0300
                                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-10 01:26 +0100
                                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-11 08:33 +0000
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 21:12 -0500
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-09 00:45 +0000
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 22:17 +0100
                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-01 21:11 +0300
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 17:47 -0700
                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-31 15:03 +0100
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-31 15:34 +0000
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 20:31 +0100
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 01:53 +0100
                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-01 11:53 +0100
                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 16:51 +0100
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-31 09:24 +0200
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 13:39 +0300
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-31 13:31 +0200
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 17:51 +0300
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-01 01:39 +0000
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-01 11:37 +0100
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-02 03:27 +0000
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-02 10:37 +0100
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 01:16 +0000
                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 11:16 +0300
                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 02:10 +0000
                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-04 12:28 +0100
                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-05 01:51 +0000
                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-04 19:45 -0700
                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-03 11:13 +0100
                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 02:12 +0000
                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-04 12:35 +0100
                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-05 01:50 +0000
                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-05 09:10 +0100
                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-06-05 09:23 -0300
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-05 15:09 +0200
                                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-06 02:12 +0000
                                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-06 19:38 +0100
                                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-07 00:55 +0000
                                                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-07 22:23 +0100
                                                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-08 00:39 +0000
                                                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-08 02:14 +0100
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-08 03:55 +0000
                                                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-08 11:14 +0100
                                                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 22:36 -0700
                          xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 14:41 +0300
                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-28 15:06 +0100
                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-28 17:42 +0200
                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 18:56 +0300
                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-28 18:14 +0200
                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 19:20 +0300
                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-28 19:57 +0100
                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 23:23 +0300
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 00:45 +0300
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 01:29 +0100
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 09:21 +0300
                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 12:44 +0300
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-28 23:08 +0100
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 01:24 +0300
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-30 02:35 +0000
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-30 00:40 -0400
                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 10:40 +0300
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-30 14:04 -0400
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 22:31 +0300
                                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-31 15:20 -0400
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-30 19:47 +0000
                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 03:15 +0000
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-03 08:57 +0200
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 07:59 +0000
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 11:02 +0300
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-06-03 14:41 -0400
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 02:07 +0000
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 14:41 +0300
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 00:54 +0100
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 10:32 +0200
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 13:08 +0300
                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 14:10 +0200
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 15:27 +0300
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 15:19 +0200
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 14:38 +0200
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 15:43 +0300
                                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 14:57 +0200
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 07:54 +0000
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 17:27 +0100
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 19:27 +0200
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-29 14:07 -0400
                                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 22:59 +0300
                                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 22:46 +0100
                                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-30 01:18 +0100
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 02:31 +0100
                                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-30 12:23 +0100
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 14:40 +0200
                                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 14:21 -0700
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 16:41 +0100
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 08:31 +0000
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-30 00:06 -0400
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 13:31 +0200
                                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 15:15 +0300
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 16:09 +0200
                                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 08:29 +0000
                                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 16:50 +0100
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-05-30 16:00 +0000
                                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 18:28 +0100
                                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 03:10 +0000
                                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 10:01 +0200
                                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-30 11:33 +0300
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-30 12:13 +0100
                                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 14:14 +0200
                                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 07:51 +0000
                                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 03:12 +0000
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 10:57 +0300
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 12:38 +0300
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 12:23 +0100
                                          Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 15:23 +0300
                                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 15:16 +0100
                                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-29 18:32 +0300
                                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 18:41 +0100
                                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 21:31 +0100
                                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 07:49 +0000
                                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 13:01 +0300
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-29 10:18 +0200
                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-28 17:34 +0200
                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-29 22:08 +0100
                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-30 15:05 +0200
                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-30 14:20 -0400
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 12:27 -0700
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-31 09:55 +0200
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-31 13:45 +0300
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-31 13:33 +0200
                                      Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-02 04:19 +0000
                                        Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-02 13:40 +0200
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-02 04:16 +0000
                            Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 18:39 +0200
                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 02:07 +0000
                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 04:46 +0200
                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 03:58 +0000
                                    Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 09:52 +0200
                                Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-04 11:01 +0300
                                  Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 10:34 +0200
                              Re: xxd -i vs DIY Was: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-06-03 22:46 -0400
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 13:54 -0700
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 01:03 +0100
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:32 +0200
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 22:23 -0300
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-23 02:59 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 21:08 -0700
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-23 04:20 +0000
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-23 04:47 +0000
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 21:30 -0700
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 07:29 +0100
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 14:32 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 13:37 -0700
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:31 +0200
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-23 20:23 +0000
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 16:25 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-23 20:31 +0300
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 14:28 -0700
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-23 17:10 +0000
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-23 15:43 +0300
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-23 02:49 +0000
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-23 16:40 +0000
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-23 15:36 +0300
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 14:24 -0700
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:35 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 16:05 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 16:17 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 16:50 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 11:08 -0700
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 11:21 -0700
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 13:22 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-24 23:51 +0000
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-23 03:13 +0000
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:42 +0200
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-23 14:35 -0400
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 09:40 -0700
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 17:10 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 12:29 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 13:29 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 16:21 -0700
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 16:15 +0200
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-23 15:02 +0300
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 15:56 +0200
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 17:15 -0500
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-23 17:37 -0700
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 12:05 +0300
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-24 06:54 -0700
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 18:46 +0300
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-25 03:01 -0700
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-23 17:19 +0300
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-23 22:10 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 00:34 +0300
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-24 01:06 +0000
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 07:47 +0100
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-25 00:31 +0000
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 06:38 +0100
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-24 05:42 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 11:42 +0300
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-23 18:35 -0700
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 19:42 -0700
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-23 20:28 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-24 17:57 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-24 16:16 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 16:41 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 19:22 +0300
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-24 19:38 +0100
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 13:06 -0700
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-24 21:20 +0100
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-25 00:32 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 17:28 +0200
            Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-25 00:40 +0000
              Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-25 17:47 +0200
                Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 16:45 -0700
                  Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 16:18 +0200
                    Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 09:48 -0500
                      Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 18:12 +0200
                        Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-28 02:48 +0000
                          Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 01:31 -0500
                            Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-29 11:27 -0400
                              Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 14:18 -0500
                          Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-28 13:56 +0200
                        Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-27 20:26 -0700
                      Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-26 18:59 -0400
              Re: errno (was Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative?) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 15:23 -0500
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 14:38 -0700
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions - why so conservative? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-24 00:48 +0300
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 21:25 +0200
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 16:49 -0300
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 07:36 +0200
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-24 09:32 +0200
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 18:34 +0200
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 09:13 +0200
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 13:23 +0200
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 00:55 +0000
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 18:34 -0500
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-01 01:27 +0000
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-02 11:02 +0300
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-02 14:03 +0200
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-02 16:29 +0300
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-02 19:23 +0000
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-02 21:44 +0200
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 12:00 +0300
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-03 18:34 +0200
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-03 16:50 +0000
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-03 21:05 +0200
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-03 19:38 +0000
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 22:58 +0300
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-03 21:22 +0000
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-04 05:17 +0000
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-04 11:23 +0300
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 10:25 +0200
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-04 13:30 +0000
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 12:48 -0500
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-04 19:17 +0000
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 17:32 -0500
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-05 07:22 +0000
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-05 07:14 +0000
                                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-05 04:01 -0500
                                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-07 00:57 +0000
                                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-07 02:52 -0500
                                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-14 03:20 +0000
                                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-05 07:15 +0000
                                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-05 13:32 +0000
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-06-05 13:59 +0000
                                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-07 00:59 +0000
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-04 05:12 +0000
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 06:55 +0000
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-02 19:15 +0000
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-02 12:46 -0700
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-03 03:21 +0000
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-03 14:16 +0000
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 13:23 -0700
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 13:46 -0500
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-04 19:21 +0000
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 20:44 -0500
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-06-04 23:59 -0400
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-05 00:44 -0500
                                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-05 13:29 +0000
                                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-06-05 13:49 -0500
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-03 21:14 +0200
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-01 15:28 +0200
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 16:33 +0100
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-02 03:28 +0000
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-25 21:24 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 08:32 +0200
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 02:48 -0700
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 13:44 +0200
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 15:39 +0300
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 15:46 +0200
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 17:20 +0300
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 16:29 +0200
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 18:05 +0300
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 18:26 +0200
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 19:50 +0300
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-28 05:41 +0000
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-28 10:46 +0300
                          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 17:10 +0200
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-26 18:23 +0300
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 19:23 +0200
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-26 18:36 +0200
                              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 19:11 +0200
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 16:30 -0700
                                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-27 10:45 +0200
                                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-28 05:45 +0000
                            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-26 13:53 -0700
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-26 21:16 +0000
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-27 07:14 +0200
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-27 00:53 +0000
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-26 21:03 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2024-05-26 08:44 +0200
      Don't let the door hit you... (Was: C23 thoughts and opinions) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-23 19:58 +0000
        Re: Don't let the door hit you... (Was: C23 thoughts and opinions) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 18:35 +0200
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 17:55 -0500
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-01 15:30 +0200
        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-02 03:29 +0000
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 23:31 -0700
          Re: C23 thoughts and opinions gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-06-02 13:24 +0000
            Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-06-02 16:51 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-02 19:52 +0000
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-03 12:01 +0300
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 13:31 -0700
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 14:02 -0700
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-06-03 21:48 +0000
                      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 10:36 +0200
                        Re: C23 thoughts and opinions "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 14:47 -0700
                Re: C23 thoughts and opinions bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-03 23:43 +0100
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 16:23 -0700
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 10:47 +0200
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-04 02:20 +0000
                    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 10:47 +0200
                  Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-04 05:25 +0000
              Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 13:29 -0700
    Re: C23 thoughts and opinions Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 21:35 -0300
      Re: C23 thoughts and opinions BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 16:05 -0500

Page 11 of 28 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11] 12 13 … 28  Next page →


#385771

FromBGB <cr88192@gmail.com>
Date2024-06-08 14:52 -0500
Message-ID<v42cs4$2pjrh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385768
On 6/8/2024 1:28 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
>>
>>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries is to use
>>> an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the binary-bloat
>>> started to get much more obvious around Visual Studio 2010, but is less
>>> of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.
>>
>> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than older
>> version?!?
> If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect these 
> to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha little 
> comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and utimalthe he Os picks 
> the up and flushes it out to a pixel raster. And that' aal it's doing. 
> Whilst on a modrern syste, stdout can do whole lot of intricate things.
> 

That is a whole lot of typos...


But, even if it is built calling MSVCRT as a DLL (rather than static 
linked), modern MSVC is still the worst of the bunch in this area.

A build as RISC-V + PIE with a static-linked C library still manages to 
be smaller than an x64 build via MSVC with entirely dynamic-linked 
libraries.

And, around 72% bigger than the same program built as a dynamic-linked 
binary with "GCC -O3" (while also often still being around 40% slower).

Contrast, VS2008 can build programs with binary sizes closer to those of 
GCC.

...


I have noted that there is often a curious level of similarity between 
code generation in MSVC and what I have managed to pull off in BGBCC, 
implying that they may be "similar" in terms of optimization and 
register allocation. Can't say whether or not it is the same algorithms, 
but GCC seems to work differently.

For example:
BGBCC assigns registers either on per-function basis, or allocated 
within a basic block;
Any registers that are allocated within a basic block, are spilled to 
the stack at the end of a basic block;
Those that are static assigned to registers, will always use this 
register within the function in question.

GCC appears to locally assign registers within basic blocks and across 
the edges between basic blocks, without either global assignment or 
needing to spill them to the stack.
Seemingly in contrast to both BGBCC and (seemingly) also MSVC.


Though, that said, compiling code with my compiler and ISA still seems 
to be beating RISC-V in terms of performance (despite GCC's valiant 
efforts with "-O3").

I suspect though this is mostly due to limitations of RISC-V, and GCC 
can only work with what it is given:
   Only has a [Reg+Disp] addressing mode;
   No way to express immediate values larger than 12 bits;
   ...


And, for PIE, performing function calls and accessing global variables 
via the GOT doesn't exactly help matters.

Say, for example:
For a non-PIE build, BJX2-XG2 and RV64G were roughly break-even in terms 
of code-size, with around a 10-20% performance delta;
For a PIE build (currently needed to load RV64 binaries in my kernel), 
there is around a 60% code-size delta, and around a 20-35% performance 
delta.


Can note that I am using an ABI design that still allows for dynamic 
linking and (also) for NOMMU operation similar to FDPIC, but doesn't 
hurt performance quite as badly.

Function calls still use PC relative displacements, except for dllimport 
(which would involve a trampoline).

Global variables are accessed as a load/store relative to the Global 
Pointer. The global pointer may be saved/restored in prolog's/epilogs 
and there is an ABI-defined ritual to get the global pointer reloaded to 
the correct value for the current image (note that loading a PC-relative 
address into the global pointer is not be valid in this ABI; as there 
may be multiple instances of a program running in the same address space 
each with their own unique global pointers).

However, saving/restoring and reloading the global pointer once in a 
function, is cheaper than accessing global variables indirectly via the GOT.

...


Granted:
There is a drawback that with my ABI, in that it can't implicitly share 
functions or variables across DLL boundaries.


Can also note that on x86-64, despite MSVC having similar behavior. and 
GCC using PIE on x86-64 in WSL that works in a similar way to PIE on 
RV64, the programs built as PIE on x86-64 are faster than those built 
via MSVC.

Granted, it is possible that x86-64 can hide a lot of the penalties from 
PIE via modern x86-64 CPUs almost universally being OoO (only real 
exceptions I am aware of being the early Atom cores, and early versions 
of the Xeon Phi).

...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#385785

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-09 12:40 +0300
Message-ID<20240609124032.00004eb1@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385771
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 14:52:26 -0500
BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/8/2024 1:28 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:  
> >> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
> >>  
> >>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries is
> >>> to use an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the
> >>> binary-bloat started to get much more obvious around Visual
> >>> Studio 2010, but is less of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.  
> >>
> >> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than
> >> older version?!?  
> > If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect
> > these to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha
> > little comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and utimalthe
> > he Os picks the up and flushes it out to a pixel raster. And that'
> > aal it's doing. Whilst on a modrern syste, stdout can do whole lot
> > of intricate things. 
> 
> That is a whole lot of typos...
> 
> 
> But, even if it is built calling MSVCRT as a DLL (rather than static 
> linked), modern MSVC is still the worst of the bunch in this area.
> 
> A build as RISC-V + PIE with a static-linked C library still manages
> to be smaller than an x64 build via MSVC with entirely dynamic-linked 
> libraries.
> 
> And, around 72% bigger than the same program built as a
> dynamic-linked binary with "GCC -O3" (while also often still being
> around 40% slower).
>

GCC on Windows or on Linux?
In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc variants
are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped) exe than even
latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are not as good as older
versions at producing small code.

The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C RTL)
vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes

MSVC compilation flags: -O1 -MD
gcc compilation flags: -Oz -s

> Contrast, VS2008 can build programs with binary sizes closer to those
> of GCC.
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#385786

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-06-09 11:20 +0100
Message-ID<v43vkr$3d7el$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385785
On 09/06/2024 10:40, Michael S wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 14:52:26 -0500
> BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/8/2024 1:28 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries is
>>>>> to use an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the
>>>>> binary-bloat started to get much more obvious around Visual
>>>>> Studio 2010, but is less of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.
>>>>
>>>> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than
>>>> older version?!?
>>> If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect
>>> these to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha
>>> little comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and utimalthe
>>> he Os picks the up and flushes it out to a pixel raster. And that'
>>> aal it's doing. Whilst on a modrern syste, stdout can do whole lot
>>> of intricate things.
>>
>> That is a whole lot of typos...
>>
>>
>> But, even if it is built calling MSVCRT as a DLL (rather than static
>> linked), modern MSVC is still the worst of the bunch in this area.
>>
>> A build as RISC-V + PIE with a static-linked C library still manages
>> to be smaller than an x64 build via MSVC with entirely dynamic-linked
>> libraries.
>>
>> And, around 72% bigger than the same program built as a
>> dynamic-linked binary with "GCC -O3" (while also often still being
>> around 40% slower).
>>
> 
> GCC on Windows or on Linux?
> In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc variants
> are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped) exe than even
> latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are not as good as older
> versions at producing small code.
> 
> The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C RTL)
> vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
> vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
> gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
> gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
> gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
> gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes

I get a lot worse than that:

    C:\c>gcc hello.c

    C:\c>dir a.exe
    09/06/2024  11:04           367,349 a.exe

    C:\c>gcc hello.c -s -Os

    C:\c>dir a.exe
    09/06/2024  11:04            88,064 a.exe

(It didn't like -Oz; did you mean something other than -Os?)

Both import msvcrt.dll. gcc is version 10.3.0.

tcc gives 2KB, and mcc gives 2.5KB.

(With the latter, I know it is because it uses a comprises 5 blocks of 
data each of which is at least 512 bytes: 2 for header stuff, plus 
always 3 segments. The mininum hello.exe size I think is 700 bytes if a 
few corners are cut.)

367KB sounds astonishing, but the first time I tried Dart, it gave me a 
5MB executable for 'hello.dart'.

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#385787

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-09 14:12 +0300
Message-ID<20240609141239.00006be6@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385786
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 11:20:11 +0100
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 09/06/2024 10:40, Michael S wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 14:52:26 -0500
> > BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> On 6/8/2024 1:28 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:  
> >>> On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:  
> >>>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
> >>>>     
> >>>>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries
> >>>>> is to use an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the
> >>>>> binary-bloat started to get much more obvious around Visual
> >>>>> Studio 2010, but is less of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.  
> >>>>
> >>>> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than
> >>>> older version?!?  
> >>> If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect
> >>> these to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha
> >>> little comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and
> >>> utimalthe he Os picks the up and flushes it out to a pixel
> >>> raster. And that' aal it's doing. Whilst on a modrern syste,
> >>> stdout can do whole lot of intricate things.  
> >>
> >> That is a whole lot of typos...
> >>
> >>
> >> But, even if it is built calling MSVCRT as a DLL (rather than
> >> static linked), modern MSVC is still the worst of the bunch in
> >> this area.
> >>
> >> A build as RISC-V + PIE with a static-linked C library still
> >> manages to be smaller than an x64 build via MSVC with entirely
> >> dynamic-linked libraries.
> >>
> >> And, around 72% bigger than the same program built as a
> >> dynamic-linked binary with "GCC -O3" (while also often still being
> >> around 40% slower).
> >>  
> > 
> > GCC on Windows or on Linux?
> > In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc variants
> > are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped) exe than
> > even latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are not as good
> > as older versions at producing small code.
> > 
> > The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C
> > RTL) vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
> > vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
> > gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
> > gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
> > gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
> > gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes  
> 
> I get a lot worse than that:
> 
>     C:\c>gcc hello.c  
> 
>     C:\c>dir a.exe  
>     09/06/2024  11:04           367,349 a.exe
> 
>     C:\c>gcc hello.c -s -Os  
> 
>     C:\c>dir a.exe  
>     09/06/2024  11:04            88,064 a.exe
> 
> (It didn't like -Oz; did you mean something other than -Os?)
> 

No, I meant -Oz.
It was invented by clang, but newer gcc understand it.
I don't know what is a difference exactly, but -Oz tends to be a little
smaller.
In program as trivial as this, there should be no difference.

> Both import msvcrt.dll. gcc is version 10.3.0.
>

My gcc variants are from msys2.
Where did you get yours?

> tcc gives 2KB, and mcc gives 2.5KB.
> 

x86-64 or i386?
I think, on i386 VC5 can come close, but can not match it.
I don't have VC5 right now. Last time I tried to find it it was
surprisingly hard.
Well, probably I still has it on one very old PC that I didn't power up
for many years. I don't know if it is still alive.

> (With the latter, I know it is because it uses a comprises 5 blocks
> of data each of which is at least 512 bytes: 2 for header stuff, plus 
> always 3 segments. The mininum hello.exe size I think is 700 bytes if
> a few corners are cut.)
> 
> 367KB sounds astonishing, but the first time I tried Dart, it gave me
> a 5MB executable for 'hello.dart'.

golang tend to start at >1.5MB, but then it grows very slowly. It
appears to generate *very* self-contained executives. At least I
personally never encountered case where simple copy of exe to new
computer was insufficient.
Considering that go needs much more of run-time support than dart, I
can't find any reason for 5MB except "they don't care".

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#385792

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-09 14:44 +0300
Message-ID<20240609144427.0000016c@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385787
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:12:39 +0300
Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 11:20:11 +0100
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 367KB sounds astonishing, but the first time I tried Dart, it gave
> > me a 5MB executable for 'hello.dart'.  
> 
> golang tend to start at >1.5MB, but then it grows very slowly. It
> appears to generate *very* self-contained executives. At least I
> personally never encountered case where simple copy of exe to new
> computer was insufficient.
> Considering that go needs much more of run-time support than dart, I
> can't find any reason for 5MB except "they don't care".
> 

If we started talking about size of statically linked binaries, in this
field [on x86-64] an advantage of Windows/MSVC over Linux/gcc appears
quite huge.

MSVC 2013 - 84,480 bytes
MSVC 2019 - 119,808 bytes
gcc (Debian Linux) - 682,688 bytes

By old standards, MSVC binary is bloated beyond reason, but
comparatively to gcc/Linux it looks almost lean.

I can't say that I care deeply, but can't say that I don't care at all
either. Statically linked binaries is the only way by which I was able
to copy programs compiled on relatively new Debian to Ubuntu-LTS that
was not that much older (2-3 years). I fully believe that there exist
other methods, but they are above my skills and above skills of
co-workers.



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#385797

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-06-09 17:32 +0100
Message-ID<v44lf7$3kpef$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385787
On 09/06/2024 12:12, Michael S wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 11:20:11 +0100
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 

>>> GCC on Windows or on Linux?
>>> In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc variants
>>> are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped) exe than
>>> even latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are not as good
>>> as older versions at producing small code.
>>>
>>> The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C
>>> RTL) vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
>>> vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
>>> gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
>>> gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
>>> gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
>>> gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes
>>
>> I get a lot worse than that:
>>
>>      C:\c>gcc hello.c
>>
>>      C:\c>dir a.exe
>>      09/06/2024  11:04           367,349 a.exe
>>
>>      C:\c>gcc hello.c -s -Os
>>
>>      C:\c>dir a.exe
>>      09/06/2024  11:04            88,064 a.exe
>>
>> (It didn't like -Oz; did you mean something other than -Os?)
>>
> 
> No, I meant -Oz.
> It was invented by clang, but newer gcc understand it.
> I don't know what is a difference exactly, but -Oz tends to be a little
> smaller.
> In program as trivial as this, there should be no difference.
> 
>> Both import msvcrt.dll. gcc is version 10.3.0.
>>
> 
> My gcc variants are from msys2.
> Where did you get yours?

It's gcc/TDM. Anything else, I can spend 10 minutes following links to a 
mingw download, only to end up back where I started from. gcc/TDM is a 
much simpler installation.

>> tcc gives 2KB, and mcc gives 2.5KB.
>>
> 
> x86-64 or i386?

All were for x64.

gcc's stdio.h header defines `printf` (which my hello.c uses) as an 
inlined wrapper based around  `__mingw_vasprintf()`. So there might be 
further inlined stuff or that is statically linked, before it finally 
ends up calling the real `printf`.

With gcc, I get 39.9KB for -m32 -Os -s.

If I use 'puts' instead, and -m32, then it gets down to 14KB.

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#385798

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-09 20:00 +0300
Message-ID<20240609200014.000014be@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385797
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:32:40 +0100
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 09/06/2024 12:12, Michael S wrote:
> > On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 11:20:11 +0100
> > bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >   
> 
> >>> GCC on Windows or on Linux?
> >>> In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc
> >>> variants are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped)
> >>> exe than even latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are
> >>> not as good as older versions at producing small code.
> >>>
> >>> The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C
> >>> RTL) vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
> >>> vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
> >>> gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
> >>> gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
> >>> gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
> >>> gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes  
> >>
> >> I get a lot worse than that:
> >>  
> >>      C:\c>gcc hello.c  
> >>  
> >>      C:\c>dir a.exe  
> >>      09/06/2024  11:04           367,349 a.exe
> >>  
> >>      C:\c>gcc hello.c -s -Os  
> >>  
> >>      C:\c>dir a.exe  
> >>      09/06/2024  11:04            88,064 a.exe
> >>
> >> (It didn't like -Oz; did you mean something other than -Os?)
> >>  
> > 
> > No, I meant -Oz.
> > It was invented by clang, but newer gcc understand it.
> > I don't know what is a difference exactly, but -Oz tends to be a
> > little smaller.
> > In program as trivial as this, there should be no difference.
> >   
> >> Both import msvcrt.dll. gcc is version 10.3.0.
> >>  
> > 
> > My gcc variants are from msys2.
> > Where did you get yours?  
> 
> It's gcc/TDM. 

I never heard about TDM except from you.

> Anything else, I can spend 10 minutes following links
> to a mingw download, only to end up back where I started from.
> gcc/TDM is a much simpler installation.
>

Somehow, I installed msys2 many times, using 2 or 3 different methods
and it worked every single time. It's huge download, but it works.
There were cases where I had problems installing additional packages on
top of msys2, but they were always caused by idiotic policies of
corporate IT. At my personal systems it was always flawless.

This page appear to give correct up to date instructions
https://www.msys2.org/#installation


> >> tcc gives 2KB, and mcc gives 2.5KB.
> >>  
> > 
> > x86-64 or i386?  
> 
> All were for x64.
> 
> gcc's stdio.h header defines `printf` (which my hello.c uses) as an 
> inlined wrapper based around  `__mingw_vasprintf()`. So there might
> be further inlined stuff or that is statically linked, before it
> finally ends up calling the real `printf`.
> 

The size you mentioned in the previous post is suspiciously similar to
the size VS2013 statically linked binary.

> With gcc, I get 39.9KB for -m32 -Os -s.
> 

That is smaller than statically linked 32-bit VS2013 (73,216 bytes).
But a lot bigger than 6,144 DLL-based VS2013 32bit binary.

> If I use 'puts' instead, and -m32, then it gets down to 14KB.
> 
> 

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#385799

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-06-09 21:06 +0100
Message-ID<v451v8$3oq3d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385798
On 09/06/2024 18:00, Michael S wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:32:40 +0100
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 09/06/2024 12:12, Michael S wrote:
>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 11:20:11 +0100
>>> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>    
>>
>>>>> GCC on Windows or on Linux?
>>>>> In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc
>>>>> variants are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped)
>>>>> exe than even latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are
>>>>> not as good as older versions at producing small code.
>>>>>
>>>>> The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C
>>>>> RTL) vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
>>>>> vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
>>>>> gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
>>>>> gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
>>>>> gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
>>>>> gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes
>>>>
>>>> I get a lot worse than that:
>>>>   
>>>>       C:\c>gcc hello.c
>>>>   
>>>>       C:\c>dir a.exe
>>>>       09/06/2024  11:04           367,349 a.exe
>>>>   
>>>>       C:\c>gcc hello.c -s -Os
>>>>   
>>>>       C:\c>dir a.exe
>>>>       09/06/2024  11:04            88,064 a.exe
>>>>
>>>> (It didn't like -Oz; did you mean something other than -Os?)
>>>>   
>>>
>>> No, I meant -Oz.
>>> It was invented by clang, but newer gcc understand it.
>>> I don't know what is a difference exactly, but -Oz tends to be a
>>> little smaller.
>>> In program as trivial as this, there should be no difference.
>>>    
>>>> Both import msvcrt.dll. gcc is version 10.3.0.
>>>>   
>>>
>>> My gcc variants are from msys2.
>>> Where did you get yours?
>>
>> It's gcc/TDM.
> 
> I never heard about TDM except from you.
> 
>> Anything else, I can spend 10 minutes following links
>> to a mingw download, only to end up back where I started from.
>> gcc/TDM is a much simpler installation.
>>
> 
> Somehow, I installed msys2 many times, using 2 or 3 different methods
> and it worked every single time. It's huge download, but it works.
> There were cases where I had problems installing additional packages on
> top of msys2, but they were always caused by idiotic policies of
> corporate IT. At my personal systems it was always flawless.

I'm not talking about MSYS2. I'm not even sure what it is. msys2.org 
describes it as:

"MSYS2 is software distribution and a building platform for Windows. It 
provides a Unix-like environment, a command-line interface and a 
software repository making it easier to install, use, build and port 
software on Windows. That means Bash, Autotools, Make, Git, GCC, GDB..., 
all easily installable through Pacman, a fully-featured package manager."

Um, I only want an optimising C compiler, nothing else! And especially I 
do NOT want a 'Unix-like' environment; I think it is entirely 
unnecessary for a tool that simply converts .c files into .exe files.


> This page appear to give correct up to date instructions
> https://www.msys2.org/#installation


Today I tried once more to install mingw gcc. One hit gave me this page:

   https://www.naukri.com/code360/library/gcc-compiler-for-windows

Step 1 tells me to click here:

   https://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw-w64/

It says: "A complete runtime environment for gcc"; hmm; it doesn't sound 
like a compiler! But I'm just following the instructions.

After 10 minutes I had a 110B installation with 6000 files, but none was 
the 85KB EXE file mentioned in step 3, which isn't even part of the ZIP 
according to the screen shot. Where does that file come from?

So I tried a different tack; that took me here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw/

This one turns out to be that 85KB file that was missing before!  OK, 
let's do it. It shows a list of things to install, including MSYS2 (no 
thanks) and compilers for Ada, C++, Fortran, Objective-C, but no C, 
unless it is the 'base' package? I have really no idea.

I click that, but then what? There is no Install, Proceed, Get, or OK 
button! But under a pulldown menu, there is Apply Changes. Now it's 
doing something. At the end there was no specific message, but it said 
somewhere: This package has not been installed;...

But I tried it anyway (notice this is from a normal command line):

   C:\c>gcc --version
   gcc (MinGW.org GCC-6.3.0-1) 6.3.0

So it's version 6 of gcc! Nowhere do I remember seeing that mentioned.

I don't normally waste my time going down these futile rabbitholes, but 
sometimes it can be fun as you get to see some appallingly bad 
installation processes.

Of course, people will go to any lengths to defend these very complex 
products, and will explain to you why it is good idea to separate out 
compiler, headers, assembler, linker, library into lots of different 
pieces, all with names that are subtle variations of mingw and w64

This is why I prefer TDM:

   https://jmeubank.github.io/tdm-gcc/

Click on the version you want.

Other Windows C compilers are even simpler, and smaller. (TDM is 0.5GB, 
Tiny C is under 0.002GB, and own 'bcc' is 0.001GB. My own non-C compiler 
is 0.0004GB. Both my products are single EXE files.)

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#385800

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-09 23:40 +0300
Message-ID<20240609234007.0000162e@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385799
I can only tell you what works well for me. I can't force you to use it.
Also, I can't prevent you from trying to use something that no longer
works well due to absence of support, i.e. old msys/mingw.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#385802

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-06-09 22:49 +0100
Message-ID<v4581i$3qmf9$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385800
On 09/06/2024 21:40, Michael S wrote:
> I can only tell you what works well for me. I can't force you to use it.
> Also, I can't prevent you from trying to use something that no longer
> works well due to absence of support, i.e. old msys/mingw.
> 

I was trying to install the LATEST version of gcc on Windows! That would 
13.x, which I've done before, perhaps hitting on the right link by chance.

'gcc' /can/ be run from a pure Windows command line, as I've been using 
versions of it for years.

But they don't make it easy, as gcc is perceived to be tied to WSL MSYS2 
MINGW CYGWIN.

I've had another go at this elusive compiler, this time apparently 
successful. Here are the steps I used:

* Start from mingw-w64.com. Ignore where it says it's a 'complete
   runtime environment for gcc'. There is also an actual compiler at the
   end of the process!

* Click on Downloads on the left

* There is a list of prebuilt toolchains. The promising ones are
   w64devkit, MingW-W64-builds, and possibly WinLibs.com?
   I clicked on MinGW-W64-builds.

* That takes you down the page to MingW-Builds, but this is where I had
   a bit of luck: as this is a one-line entry, I missed it and starting
   reading about WinLibs.com instead. But where are the downloads? The
   link is in the small print on the last line of that section.

* It you to winlibs.com. This is looks disconcertingly like a 1990s
   website. It surely can't be the right place? Just don't click on
   MinGW-w64 as that just takes you back to square one.

* Scroll down to Downloads. There are 16 to choose from for each
   version. I clicked (by mistake - I think) on the version /with/ LLVM
   etc, but I  don't know what the difference is. I chose the MSVCRT
   version.

The end result was a 1.4GB installation of gcc 14.1.0. Using 'gcc 
hello.c -Os -s' gives of 48KB (with 10.3 it was 88KB). It still imports 
msvcrt.dll, but not printf (it does import vfprintf).

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#385803

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-10 01:06 +0300
Message-ID<20240610010653.00005f00@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385802
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 22:49:39 +0100
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 09/06/2024 21:40, Michael S wrote:
> > I can only tell you what works well for me. I can't force you to
> > use it. Also, I can't prevent you from trying to use something that
> > no longer works well due to absence of support, i.e. old msys/mingw.
> >   
> 
> I was trying to install the LATEST version of gcc on Windows! That
> would 13.x, which I've done before, perhaps hitting on the right link
> by chance.
> 
> 'gcc' /can/ be run from a pure Windows command line, as I've been
> using versions of it for years.
> 
> But they don't make it easy, as gcc is perceived to be tied to WSL
> MSYS2 MINGW CYGWIN.
> 
> I've had another go at this elusive compiler, this time apparently 
> successful. Here are the steps I used:
> 
> * Start from mingw-w64.com. Ignore where it says it's a 'complete
>    runtime environment for gcc'. There is also an actual compiler at
> the end of the process!
> 
> * Click on Downloads on the left
> 
> * There is a list of prebuilt toolchains. The promising ones are
>    w64devkit, MingW-W64-builds, and possibly WinLibs.com?
>    I clicked on MinGW-W64-builds.
> 
> * That takes you down the page to MingW-Builds, but this is where I
> had a bit of luck: as this is a one-line entry, I missed it and
> starting reading about WinLibs.com instead. But where are the
> downloads? The link is in the small print on the last line of that
> section.
> 
> * It you to winlibs.com. This is looks disconcertingly like a 1990s
>    website. It surely can't be the right place? Just don't click on
>    MinGW-w64 as that just takes you back to square one.
> 
> * Scroll down to Downloads. There are 16 to choose from for each
>    version. I clicked (by mistake - I think) on the version /with/
> LLVM etc, but I  don't know what the difference is. I chose the MSVCRT
>    version.
> 
> The end result was a 1.4GB installation of gcc 14.1.0. Using 'gcc 
> hello.c -Os -s' gives of 48KB (with 10.3 it was 88KB). It still
> imports msvcrt.dll, but not printf (it does import vfprintf).
> 

It sounds like you ended up with gcc distro based on 12 y.o. Microsoft
DLL that does not support majority of c11 library features and likely
does not support few c99 library features as well.
If you were a little less stubborn, in 10 minutes you could have have
distro based on new ucrt DLL that is closer to new C standard and
generates smaller binaries.
And likely occupies less than 1.4 GB.

BTW, I don't understand why MSVC produces smaller binaries with old MS C
RTL DLL while gcc produces smaller binaries with new MS C RTL DLL.
But that's undeniable fact.











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#385807

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-06-10 01:26 +0100
Message-ID<v45h7d$3tdeb$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385803
On 09/06/2024 23:06, Michael S wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 22:49:39 +0100
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 09/06/2024 21:40, Michael S wrote:
>>> I can only tell you what works well for me. I can't force you to
>>> use it. Also, I can't prevent you from trying to use something that
>>> no longer works well due to absence of support, i.e. old msys/mingw.
>>>    
>>
>> I was trying to install the LATEST version of gcc on Windows! That
>> would 13.x, which I've done before, perhaps hitting on the right link
>> by chance.
>>
>> 'gcc' /can/ be run from a pure Windows command line, as I've been
>> using versions of it for years.
>>
>> But they don't make it easy, as gcc is perceived to be tied to WSL
>> MSYS2 MINGW CYGWIN.
>>
>> I've had another go at this elusive compiler, this time apparently
>> successful. Here are the steps I used:
...
>>
>> The end result was a 1.4GB installation of gcc 14.1.0. Using 'gcc
>> hello.c -Os -s' gives of 48KB (with 10.3 it was 88KB). It still
>> imports msvcrt.dll, but not printf (it does import vfprintf).
>>
> 
> It sounds like you ended up with gcc distro based on 12 y.o. Microsoft
> DLL that does not support majority of c11 library features and likely
> does not support few c99 library features as well.
> If you were a little less stubborn, in 10 minutes you could have have
> distro based on new ucrt DLL that is closer to new C standard and
> generates smaller binaries.
> And likely occupies less than 1.4 GB.

I downloaded a different 14.1 version that was 'only' 0.8GB. (Compared 
to 1.4GB; it's still 2000 times bigger than my main compiler!)

That uses UCRT, but the size difference is probably due to not including 
LLVM/Clang stuff. (Which didn't work anyway; I think clang triggered my AV.)

This now gives a hello.c executable of 22KB; it was 48KB with the 1.4GB 
download, and 88KB with 10.3.0.


> BTW, I don't understand why MSVC produces smaller binaries with old MS C
> RTL DLL while gcc produces smaller binaries with new MS C RTL DLL.
> But that's undeniable fact.

I think the sizes of the runtime libraries are irrelevant if they are 
both dynamically linked. It's what the compiler puts directly into the 
executable that makes the difference. And here they are just too diverse 
in how they work. It can't be the 20 bytes of code for hello.c that 
affects it.

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#385835

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-06-11 08:33 +0000
Message-ID<v49259$vb55$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385787
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:12:39 +0300, Michael S wrote:

> I don't know what is a difference exactly, but -Oz tends to be a little
> smaller.

Some kind of “wizard” optimization, no doubt ...

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#385813

FromBGB <cr88192@gmail.com>
Date2024-06-09 21:12 -0500
Message-ID<v45nfu$2k71$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385785
On 6/9/2024 4:40 AM, Michael S wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 14:52:26 -0500
> BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/8/2024 1:28 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries is
>>>>> to use an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the
>>>>> binary-bloat started to get much more obvious around Visual
>>>>> Studio 2010, but is less of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.
>>>>
>>>> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than
>>>> older version?!?
>>> If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect
>>> these to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha
>>> little comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and utimalthe
>>> he Os picks the up and flushes it out to a pixel raster. And that'
>>> aal it's doing. Whilst on a modrern syste, stdout can do whole lot
>>> of intricate things.
>>
>> That is a whole lot of typos...
>>
>>
>> But, even if it is built calling MSVCRT as a DLL (rather than static
>> linked), modern MSVC is still the worst of the bunch in this area.
>>
>> A build as RISC-V + PIE with a static-linked C library still manages
>> to be smaller than an x64 build via MSVC with entirely dynamic-linked
>> libraries.
>>
>> And, around 72% bigger than the same program built as a
>> dynamic-linked binary with "GCC -O3" (while also often still being
>> around 40% slower).
>>
> 
> GCC on Windows or on Linux?

Windows + WSL, which produces ELF64.

The "gcc -v" from the main version of WSL I am using:

Using built-in specs.
COLLECT_GCC=gcc
COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.8/lto-wrapper
Target: x86_64-linux-gnu
Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Ubuntu 
4.8.4-2ubuntu1~14.04.4' 
--with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.8/README.Bugs 
--enable-languages=c,c++,java,go,d,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr 
--program-suffix=-4.8 --enable-shared --enable-linker-build-id 
--libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix 
--with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.8 --libdir=/usr/lib 
--enable-nls --with-sysroot=/ --enable-clocale=gnu 
--enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-libstdcxx-time=yes 
--enable-gnu-unique-object --disable-libmudflap --enable-plugin 
--with-system-zlib --disable-browser-plugin --enable-java-awt=gtk 
--enable-gtk-cairo 
--with-java-home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-gcj-4.8-amd64/jre 
--enable-java-home 
--with-jvm-root-dir=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-gcj-4.8-amd64 
--with-jvm-jar-dir=/usr/lib/jvm-exports/java-1.5.0-gcj-4.8-amd64 
--with-arch-directory=amd64 
--with-ecj-jar=/usr/share/java/eclipse-ecj.jar --enable-objc-gc 
--enable-multiarch --disable-werror --with-arch-32=i686 --with-abi=m64 
--with-multilib-list=m32,m64,mx32 --with-tune=generic 
--enable-checking=release --build=x86_64-linux-gnu 
--host=x86_64-linux-gnu --target=x86_64-linux-gnu
Thread model: posix
gcc version 4.8.4 (Ubuntu 4.8.4-2ubuntu1~14.04.4)


I have another (newer) version of WSL installed, but it doesn't have 
Verilator and similar set up on it (nor is configured for the X11 server 
I am running).



> In my experience, gcc on Windows (ucrt64 variant, other gcc variants
> are worse) very consistently produces bigger (stripped) exe than even
> latest MSVCs which, as you correctly stated, are not as good as older
> versions at producing small code.
> 
> The size of 'Hello, world' program (x86-64, dynamically linked C RTL)
> vs2013 - 6,144 bytes
> vs2019 - 9,216 bytes
> gcc (Debian Linux, -no-pie) - 14,400 bytes
> gcc (Debian Linux) - 14,472 bytes
> gcc (ucrt64 DLL) - 18,432 bytes
> gcc (old DLL) - 42,496 bytes
> 
> MSVC compilation flags: -O1 -MD
> gcc compilation flags: -Oz -s
> 

I guess one option could be to compare against a newer version of Cygwin 
or MinGW, but I haven't really used these for much in years.

General program I was comparing with here was a port of the original 
Doom engine (but saw similar results across various programs). Something 
like a "hello world" is likely too small for accurate size comparison 
(and will likely be dominated by overheads).


Testing small program (not much more complicated than a "hello world") 
generates a roughly 31K EXE with my compiler and a static-linked C 
library (on my ISA).

The compiler in this case strips out most things not directly needed for 
for "printf()" (but does seem to still include the memory-manager and 
filesystem interface code, likely because these are reachable from 
"printf()").


Building the same program as RV64 with the same static-linked C library, 
is 326K with a little over half of the binary being ELF/PIE metadata:
    ~ 133k .text
    ~   5K .rodata
    ~   2K .data
    The .dynsym / .dynstr / .rela.* / etc  sections eating the rest.

(It also seems like GCC isn't pruning as much for some reason; this is 
with "-ffunction-sections" and similar).


With dynamic linked glibc (x86-64), PIE, 9K.

With MSVC, static-linked C lib: 121K
With MSVC, dynamic-linked C lib: 10K


>> Contrast, VS2008 can build programs with binary sizes closer to those
>> of GCC.
>>
> 

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#385776

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2024-06-09 00:45 +0000
Message-ID<v42u03$2u4lh$9@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385768
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:28:47 +0100, Malcolm McLean wrote:

> On 07/06/2024 01:53, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 15:38:21 -0500, BGB-Alt wrote:
>> 
>>> *2: Seemingly the main way I am aware of to get small binaries is to
>>> use an older version of MSVC (such as 6.0 to 9.0), as the binary-bloat
>>> started to get much more obvious around Visual Studio 2010, but is
>>> less of an issue with VS2005 or VS2008.
>> 
>> Newer version of proprietary compiler generates worse code than older
>> version?!?
>
> If the code is calling extern gunctions that do IO, we woul expect these
> to be massively more sophisticated on a modern ststem Witha little
> comouter, pribtf just wtites acharacter raster and utimalthe he Os picks
> the up and flushes it out to a pixel raster. And that' aal it's doing.
> Whilst on a modrern syste, stdout can do whole lot of intricate things.

Nothing to do with the compiler, though.

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#385371

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-05-31 22:17 +0100
Message-ID<v3deq1$2d2v4$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385368
On 31/05/2024 20:42, jak wrote:
> bart ha scritto:

>> C:\c>objcopy -I binary -O elf64-x86-64 hello.c hello.obj

> You could use the pe-x86-64 format instead of the elf64-x86-64 to reduce
> the size of the object.

The PE format doesn't work; gcc's ld linker has a problem with it, when 
it is generated by 'objcopy'.

Actually there is a LOT wrong with this whole approach.

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#385392

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2024-06-01 21:11 +0300
Message-ID<20240601211131.00001e16@yahoo.com>
In reply to#385364
On Fri, 31 May 2024 19:03:10 +0100
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> OK, thanks. But I forget to ask what results you got from running the 
> program. Because if I try your code, using hello.c and hello.exe as
> test binary/source data, I get this output:
> 
> _binary_test_bi_start                    00007ff6497620e0
> 140695771160800 _binary_test_bi_end
> 00007ff649762ae0 140695771163360 _binary_test_bi_size
>     00007ff509750a00 140690402380288 _binary_bin_to_list_c_start
>         00007ff649762ae0 140695771163360 _binary_bin_to_list_c_end
>             00007ff649762b26 140695771163430
> _binary_bin_to_list_c_size               00007ff509750046
> 140690402377798
> 
> The sizes should have been 2560 and 70 respectively; those values are 
> bit bigger than that.
> 

That's strange.  I got expected results:
_binary_test_bi_start                    000000013FDD30C0 5366427840
_binary_test_bi_end                      000000013FDD67AC 5366441900
_binary_test_bi_size                     00000000000036EC 14060
_binary_bin_to_list_c_start              000000013FDD67AC 5366441900
_binary_bin_to_list_c_end                000000013FDD711F 5366444319
_binary_bin_to_list_c_size               0000000000000973 2419

> However I see that you also have start and end addresses, which
> sounds a much better way of determining the size. (In that case, what
> are those *size symbols for?).
>

I'd guess, *_size is here for the benefit of less smart compilers that
can not figure out that *_end - *_start is a connst expression
and can not compile code like:

static ptrdiff_t bar = _binary_test_bi_end - _binary_test_bi_start;


But that is just a guess. For better answer you can ask authors of
objcopy.





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#385400

FromTim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Date2024-06-01 17:47 -0700
Message-ID<8634pwp3vg.fsf@linuxsc.com>
In reply to#385392
Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Fri, 31 May 2024 19:03:10 +0100
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>> OK, thanks.  But I forget to ask what results you got from running the
>> program.  Because if I try your code, using hello.c and hello.exe as
>> test binary/source data, I get this output:
>>
>> _binary_test_bi_start                    00007ff6497620e0
>> 140695771160800 _binary_test_bi_end
>> 00007ff649762ae0 140695771163360 _binary_test_bi_size
>>     00007ff509750a00 140690402380288 _binary_bin_to_list_c_start
>>         00007ff649762ae0 140695771163360 _binary_bin_to_list_c_end
>>             00007ff649762b26 140695771163430
>> _binary_bin_to_list_c_size               00007ff509750046
>> 140690402377798
>>
>> The sizes should have been 2560 and 70 respectively;  those values are
>> bit bigger than that.
>
> That's strange.  I got expected results:
> _binary_test_bi_start                    000000013FDD30C0 5366427840
> _binary_test_bi_end                      000000013FDD67AC 5366441900
> _binary_test_bi_size                     00000000000036EC 14060
> _binary_bin_to_list_c_start              000000013FDD67AC 5366441900
> _binary_bin_to_list_c_end                000000013FDD711F 5366444319
> _binary_bin_to_list_c_size               0000000000000973 2419
>
>> However I see that you also have start and end addresses, which
>> sounds a much better way of determining the size.  (In that case, what
>> are those *size symbols for?).
>
> I'd guess, *_size is here for the benefit of less smart compilers that
> can not figure out that *_end - *_start is a connst expression
> and can not compile code like:
>
> static ptrdiff_t bar = _binary_test_bi_end - _binary_test_bi_start;

I wouldn't expect any C compiler to accept that.  It's not a constant
expression under the rules of the C standard, and there is no plausible
way to generate code for it in the context of compiling one translation
unit.  Neither gcc nor clang accepts it, even run without asking for
any standard compliance.  An implementation could allow it as an
extension, but there seems little reason to do so, because it would be
a lot of work to implement, and offers very little utility.

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#385358

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-05-31 15:03 +0100
Message-ID<v3clcb$28n91$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#385352
On 31/05/2024 14:19, Michael S wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 13:55:33 +0100

> No, it does not work like that.
> First, copy *exactly* what I said in my previous post.
> Only after you reproduced, start to be smart.
> _binary_hello_c_size is a link simbol rather than variable.
> 
> Declaration:
> extern char _binary_hello_c_size[];
> 
> Usage:
>    printf("%zd\n", (size_t)_binary_hello_c_size);

I've now tried all sorts of combinations. While I can display the 
address of _binary_hello_c_size, it will crash if I try and deference it.

The value of that symbol looks like this:

   00007ff678b90046

It is clearly not the size of the data. But as I said, I can't get 
inside it. Neither is it simply the end address of the data (they differ 
by about 2**30).


>> One small matter is those ugly, long identifiers. A bigger one in
>> this case is that I really want that embedded text to be zero
>> terminated; here it's unlikely to be.
>>
> 
> The tool is not made specifically for ASCII strings, it is more generic.

There are two possibilities I'm interested in:

* Having the data zero-terminated, for when you want to embed a text
   file as a zero-terminated string
* Everything else, where you just want the binary blob as-is

>> Unfortunately gcc/ld doesn't recognise the output of objcopy. Even
>> though it accepts the output of mcc which is the same COFF format.
>>
> 
> It recognizes it if lye to objcopy about format.
> Specify elf64-x86-64 instead of pe-x86-64 and everything suddenly
> works.
> It's all was said in my posts from yesterday. It does not sound like you
> had read them.

You said RTFM; I did. Nowhere did it say you have to use ELF object 
format /on Windows/.

So, since I know gcc/ld on Windows understands PE, why didn't work?

You can see there is problem after problem and a number of quirks.

But if you have a fully working demo(you can forget the string 
requirement, that was just an easy way of showing it had the right 
data), then I will look at it again.

Even if works however, I don't like it and now don't trust it.

This is why I prefer language-supported solutions, and fortunately in my 
languages I can make it as simple and intuitive as I like.

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#385363

FromKaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Date2024-05-31 15:34 +0000
Message-ID<20240531081143.419@kylheku.com>
In reply to#385351
On 2024-05-31, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> Here's how builtin embedding worked using a feature of my older C compiler:
>
>    #include <stdio.h>
>    #include <string.h>
>
>    char hello[] = strinclude("hello.c");
>
>    int main(void) {
>        printf("hello =\n%s\n", hello);
>        printf("strlen(hello) = %zu\n", strlen(hello));
>        printf("sizeof(hello) = %zu\n", sizeof(hello));
>    }

Lisp:

$ cat strincl.tl
(defmacro strinclude (path)
  (put-line `including @path`)
  (file-get-string path))

(defun test()
  (strinclude "/etc/hostname"))

When we run it interpreted we see from the debug put-line that /etc/hostname is
included at macro-expansion time before we run the test function:

$ txr -i strincl.tl
including /etc/hostname
This TTY may be recorded for privacy-violating and evidence-gathering purposes.
1> (test)
"sun-go\n"

Now compile the file: the file is pulled it at compile time. Twice. :)
A double expansion took place due to certain complexities of compiling.

$ txr --compile=strincl.tl
including /etc/hostname
including /etc/hostname

Now when we load the compiled file, the diagnostic trace
"including /etc/hostname" no longer appears: the string is part of the test
function as a literal:

$ txr -i strincl
TXR is enteric coated to release over 24 hours of lasting relief.
1> (test)
"sun-go\n"

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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