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How would you design C's replacement?

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  How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 17:17 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-29 18:44 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-29 22:20 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 15:32 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 00:37 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 18:30 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 13:43 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-29 23:45 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 22:12 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 13:06 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 08:36 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 00:17 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 01:05 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 07:36 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 13:39 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 23:06 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 18:11 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:36 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 00:24 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 17:08 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 19:15 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-05-01 03:06 +0000
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:18 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 12:14 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 16:53 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:17 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 17:24 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:44 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 12:18 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-29 11:10 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-04-29 18:27 +0000
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 13:54 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:07 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:23 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-04-30 00:41 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 07:30 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 16:29 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-29 22:26 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 21:27 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 08:49 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-04-30 00:42 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-04-30 19:40 +0200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-05-25 10:38 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-27 10:22 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? FireXware <none@none.invalid> - 2012-04-29 14:29 -0600
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 17:18 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:56 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 08:04 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-29 16:37 -0500
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-04-29 22:43 +0000
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 06:41 +0200
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-30 01:33 -0500
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 07:26 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 13:30 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 11:44 +1200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:25 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 18:23 +1200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 06:18 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-05-02 20:25 +0000
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:10 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 20:34 +1200
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-04-30 01:01 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 10:08 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-04-30 08:22 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 12:09 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-01 00:23 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:40 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-05-02 20:15 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-30 17:17 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 12:44 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 16:28 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-04-30 23:50 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 13:52 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 13:44 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-01 08:34 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:22 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 01:14 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:35 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-04 00:44 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Leo Havmøller <rtxleh@nospam.nospam> - 2012-04-30 13:39 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 11:15 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:15 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-04-30 12:11 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:29 +0100
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-04-30 16:43 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:31 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 03:11 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 12:32 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:06 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 14:11 +0100
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? tom st denis <tom@iahu.ca> - 2012-05-01 06:29 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:24 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:22 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 06:44 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:22 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-02 21:33 +0000
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:59 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-02 22:16 -0500
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-03 10:13 +0100
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-03 13:05 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 23:36 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 02:40 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 01:37 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-05-02 16:41 +0200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 02:54 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:18 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-02 20:27 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 01:22 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-05-04 00:41 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-05-04 08:41 +0000
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2012-05-07 01:11 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-07 07:18 -0400
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-07 05:41 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-07 09:24 -0400
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-07 09:31 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-10 15:37 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-04 08:16 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-04 09:49 -0700
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-04-30 14:25 -0400
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-04-30 22:19 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-04-30 14:04 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-01 00:33 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-04-30 15:43 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:17 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:15 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-01 07:12 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-05-01 10:41 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-01 17:39 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 12:46 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 21:41 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 00:22 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-01 15:53 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Quentin Pope <qp19433@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> - 2012-05-09 21:06 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-10 00:32 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-10 10:35 +1200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-09 16:18 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2012-05-10 02:45 +0000
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-10 16:18 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-11 03:21 -0500
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2012-05-11 15:55 +0000
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-13 17:39 +0100
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-14 00:08 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-13 21:24 +0100
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Marco <prenom_nomus@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-20 06:50 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-10 00:08 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-10 04:04 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-10 10:38 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-10 11:15 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 08:36 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 17:49 +0200
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:34 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:41 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 19:42 +0200
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 10:50 -0700
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 20:16 +0200
                            Trigraphs (was Re: How would you design C's replacement?) Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-14 11:49 -0400
                              Re: Trigraphs (was Re: How would you design C's replacement?) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 12:21 -0400
                                Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 09:50 -0700
                                  Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 13:05 -0400
                                    Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 10:24 -0700
                                      Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-14 11:56 -0700
                                        Re: Trigraphs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-14 21:00 +0200
                                          Re: Trigraphs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-14 16:37 -0500
                                            Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 17:58 -0400
                                              Re: Trigraphs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-14 21:05 -0700
                                                Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:19 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:05 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-17 22:04 +0000
                                        Re: Trigraphs Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-05-14 16:22 -0400
                                          Re: Trigraphs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-14 22:05 +0100
                                            Re: Trigraphs Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-05-14 22:31 -0400
                                              Re: Trigraphs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-14 21:17 -0700
                                          Re: Trigraphs Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-17 13:42 -0700
                                    Re: Trigraphs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-14 13:33 -0700
                                      Re: Trigraphs Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-14 23:02 +0200
                                        Re: Trigraphs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-14 17:35 -0400
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 18:49 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-11 18:49 +0100
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-11 20:14 +0200
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 18:56 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-10 11:31 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 08:38 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-05-11 09:36 -0700
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-11 19:12 -0700
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-14 11:56 -0400
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-14 11:34 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-05-10 20:05 +0000
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-05-11 06:19 +0100
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 10:33 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-04-30 22:38 +0000
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 17:43 +1200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 09:39 +0200
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:21 +1200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 10:39 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:47 +1200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 08:10 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 14:37 +0200
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 08:17 -0400
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 07:48 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:32 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-01 23:07 +0200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 18:02 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-02 14:40 +0200
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 10:35 -0400
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-02 16:51 +0200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 11:44 -0700
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:23 -0700
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-05-03 12:14 +0200
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-05-03 13:38 +0200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 07:28 +1200
                        Re: How would you design C's replacement? ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 13:28 -0700
                          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 18:44 +1200
                      Re: How would you design C's replacement? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-05-03 00:56 -0700
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-02 16:04 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-01 17:14 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:10 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 17:52 +1200
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 02:37 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 07:29 -0400
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 12:19 +0100
    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-05-01 18:02 +0200
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 13:43 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-05-01 22:52 +0200
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-01 16:12 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-01 20:59 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 02:09 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:08 -0400
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 16:05 -0700
      Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-02 02:04 -0700
        Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-02 10:36 +0100
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-02 07:36 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:21 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 16:08 -0700
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:16 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2012-05-02 19:46 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:12 -0700
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-02 20:26 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:59 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-05-02 14:32 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-05-02 17:09 -0700
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-03 18:45 +1200
                  Re: How would you design C's replacement? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-05-03 08:13 -0400
                    Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-04 07:18 +1200
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-05-13 00:15 -0400
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:22 -0400
          Re: How would you design C's replacement? nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-05-03 03:09 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-05-03 03:55 -0700
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-03 12:45 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-03 13:15 +0100
              Re: How would you design C's replacement? "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-05-03 13:41 +0100
                Re: How would you design C's replacement? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-05-03 17:51 +0100
            Re: How would you design C's replacement? Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-05-03 12:37 -0400

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#20196

"Rui Maciel" <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jnoai8$o36$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>
>> But not persuasively, IMHO.
>>
>> C is at a lower semantic level than a lot of other languages.
>> But the major difference between C and assembly language is that
>> an assembly program specifies CPU instructions, while a C program
>> specifies run-time behavior.
>>
>> That's a huge distinction, with assembly languages on one side,
>> and C, C++, Ada, Python, APL, and Intercal firmly on the other.
>
> That's true.  Nonetheless, there are languages out there who are referred
> to
> as high level assembly languages which also employ some abstractions that,
> at least in some aspects, don't make their abstraction level much lower
> than
> C's.

All the high-level assembler kind of languages I've used or created, were
generally far lower level than C (although most were some time ago too).

> Another issue we might consider is that if we were given the task of
> designing an assembly language which should be able to generate code for
> multiple architectures, I suspect we would end up with a language which,
> in
> terms of features, wouldn't be much different than C's core language.

Probably not. But C is actually rather higher level than it's given credit
for. That also means it's not as great at doing low-level stuff as people
think. I only recently tried to use C as a target language for intermediate
code (no control structures, and the simplest possible expressions), yet
there were still a few problems in doing exactly what I wanted it to do.

(In the end I opted for generating assembly code directly; I know I can get
it to do anything, and I don't have a C compiler messing with my
intermediate code doing who knows what to it.)

(Try this test; given:

int a;

write some C code that will push 'a' onto the stack, and leave it there. By
'the stack', I mean the hardware stack if there is one. Then, I don't know,
perhaps pop it off the stack, treat the value as a label address, and jump
to that label. Any actual assembler worth its salt wouldn't have the
slightest problem with any of this. But can C do it? And in a way that could 
fit neatly into the margin of this message?)

-- 
Bartc 

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#20271

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:36:07 PM UTC+1, Bart wrote:
> "Rui Maciel" <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jnoai8$o36$1@speranza.aioe.org...

<snip>

> All the high-level assembler kind of languages I've used or created, were
> generally far lower level than C (although most were some time ago too).
> 
> > Another issue we might consider is that if we were given the task of
> > designing an assembly language which should be able to generate code for
> > multiple architectures, I suspect we would end up with a language which,
> > in
> > terms of features, wouldn't be much different than C's core language.
> 
> Probably not. But C is actually rather higher level than it's given credit
> for. That also means it's not as great at doing low-level stuff as people
> think. I only recently tried to use C as a target language for intermediate
> code (no control structures, and the simplest possible expressions), yet
> there were still a few problems in doing exactly what I wanted it to do.
> 
> (In the end I opted for generating assembly code directly; I know I can get
> it to do anything, and I don't have a C compiler messing with my
> intermediate code doing who knows what to it.)

yes, I was writing an interpreter in C and had a deep need for a jump table. 
had to make do with a goto and a switch

> (Try this test; given:
> 
> int a;
> 
> write some C code that will push 'a' onto the stack, and leave it there. By
> 'the stack', I mean the hardware stack if there is one. Then, I don't know,
> perhaps pop it off the stack, treat the value as a label address, and jump
> to that label. Any actual assembler worth its salt wouldn't have the
> slightest problem with any of this. But can C do it? And in a way that could 
> fit neatly into the margin of this message?)

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#20210

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:43:25 AM UTC+1, Keith Thompson wrote:
> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
> > Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> >> If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly
> >> Language" syntax as an option.
> >
> > I believe it can be argued that the C programming language is already a 
> > "fake assembly language" as it is.
> 
> But not persuasively, IMHO.
> 
> C is at a lower semantic level than a lot of other languages.
> But the major difference between C and assembly language is that
> an assembly program specifies CPU instructions, while a C program
> specifies run-time behavior.
> 
> That's a *huge* distinction, with assembly languages on one side,
> and C, C++, Ada, Python, APL, and Intercal firmly on the other.

this is why I keep asking people like io_x why he wants "fake assembly language"? Or even what it *is*!

wasn't there a guy a while back who was into Portable Assembly Language? PASM?

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#20219

<nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:12069011.121.1335947858969.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbay5...
> On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:43:25 AM UTC+1, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
>> > Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>> >> If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly
>> >> Language" syntax as an option.
>> >
>> > I believe it can be argued that the C programming language is already a
>> > "fake assembly language" as it is.
>>
>> But not persuasively, IMHO.
>>
>> C is at a lower semantic level than a lot of other languages.
>> But the major difference between C and assembly language is that
>> an assembly program specifies CPU instructions, while a C program
>> specifies run-time behavior.

i have 2 definition of assembly language...
"assembly is a language write in ascii chars in .txt
code file, that allow to control
each instruction cpu execute in the translated .exe file"

"one assembly language is a language each program one can invent
with it...
it is possible to make a partition on the .txt assembly source code
in the way
each .txt piece of text of partition generate one cpu instruction
and vice versa each .exe instruction came from one .txt piece of text
of the partition"

>> That's a *huge* distinction, with assembly languages on one side,
>> and C, C++, Ada, Python, APL, and Intercal firmly on the other.
>
> this is why I keep asking people like io_x why he wants "fake assembly
> language"? Or even what it *is*!

i want nothing, i already have all one programmer can wish: one
x86cpu 32 bit and one assembly language for that cpu...
nothing in this is "fake": it is each on or off

for the C language the only flaw i see it is in its type definitions...
i claim fixed size types as in
u8  == unsigned  8 bit
u16 == unsigned 16 bit
u32 == unsigned 32 bit
u64 == unsigned 64 bit
u2^x == unsigned 2^x bit
the same for "int" one
i8  == signed  8 bit
i16 == signed 16 bit
i32 == signed 32 bit
i64 == signed 64 bit
i2^x== signed 2^x  bit
are good because less UB in arithmetic with these types
and all composed type of these types would be
accessible/portable to other languages other programs etc

> wasn't there a guy a while back who was into Portable Assembly Language? PASM?

for to have one portable assembly first one
has to have one portable cpu [or virtual cpu]
that mean:
1) one set of accessible memory of size xxx
2) one stack and one register point to the stack
3) a set of registers of bit xx and instructions
on them and on data

for me C can not be one Portable Assembly Language ...
but if one has one portable cpu
if one has one portable assembly for that cpu
one can build the C compiler for that cpu
and have compatibility until
.exe instructions [instruction that virtual cpu execute]
for the program that C compiler build

the above speech is ok not only for C but
for all other languages too

Have good days

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#20273

On Wednesday, May 2, 2012 3:41:18 PM UTC+1, io_x wrote:
> <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:12069011.121.1335947858969.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbay5...
> > On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:43:25 AM UTC+1, Keith Thompson wrote:
> >> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
> >> > Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:

> >> >> If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake 
> >> >> Assembly Language" syntax as an option.
> >> >
> >> > I believe it can be argued that the C programming language is already a
> >> > "fake assembly language" as it is.

<snip>

> >> C is at a lower semantic level than a lot of other languages.
> >> But the major difference between C and assembly language is that
> >> an assembly program specifies CPU instructions, while a C program
> >> specifies run-time behavior.

[quote re-arraged slightly]

> >> That's a *huge* distinction, with assembly languages on one side,
> >> and C, C++, Ada, Python, APL, and Intercal firmly on the other.
> >
> > this is why I keep asking people like io_x why he wants "fake assembly
> > language"? Or even what it *is*!

> i have 2 definition of assembly language...
> "assembly is a language write in ascii chars in .txt
> code file, that allow to control
> each instruction cpu execute in the translated .exe file"

ok.

> "one assembly language is a language each program one can invent
> with it...
> it is possible to make a partition on the .txt assembly source code
> in the way
> each .txt piece of text of partition generate one cpu instruction
> and vice versa each .exe instruction came from one .txt piece of text
> of the partition"

I've no idea what any of that means

> i want nothing, i already have all one programmer can wish: one
> x86cpu 32 bit and one assembly language for that cpu...
> nothing in this is "fake": it is each on or off

tough if you don't program on a x86. as you say, this isn't "fake assembly language"

> for the C language the only flaw i see it is in its type definitions...
> i claim fixed size types as in
> u8  == unsigned  8 bit
> u16 == unsigned 16 bit
<etc>

I've never found much use for 'em. I like a Byte or Octet type because it clarifies the usage.

> are good because less UB in arithmetic with these types
> and all composed type of these types would be
> accessible/portable to other languages other programs etc
> 
> > wasn't there a guy a while back who was into Portable Assembly Language? PASM?
> 
> for to have one portable assembly first one
> has to have one portable cpu [or virtual cpu]

at which point the assembler ceases to be portable. I don't agree the terms "portable assembler" or "fake assembler" are meaningful but people still use them. In other words you want to reduce the useful of C by embedding the assembler for a single architecture.

<snip>

> the above speech is ok not only for C but
> for all other languages too

you do ralise there are more ARM processors shipped than x86s?

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#20294

On 5/2/2012 10:41 AM, io_x wrote:
[...]
> i have 2 definition of assembly language...
> "assembly is a language write in ascii chars in .txt
> code file, that allow to control
> each instruction cpu execute in the translated .exe file"

Apparently, there's no such thing as "assembly language" on an IBM 370.

:-)

[...]

-- 
Kenneth Brody

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#20255

Rui Maciel於 2012年5月1日星期二UTC+8上午4時29分50秒寫道：
> Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> 
> > If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly
> > Language" syntax as an option.
> 
> I believe it can be argued that the C programming language is already a 
> "fake assembly language" as it is.
> 
> 
> Rui Maciel



Rui Maciel於 2012年5月1日星期二UTC+8上午4時29分50秒寫道：
> Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> 
> > If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly
> > Language" syntax as an option.
> 
> I believe it can be argued that the C programming language is already a 
> "fake assembly language" as it is.
> 
> 
> Rui Maciel

OK, lets be serious about embedding assembly languages into C to become 
some part of the C language standard. 

I don't expect C++ to take over this part of C.

But mixing assembly parts and C programs together  in system programming were around for more than 20 years in GCC, MSVC, TURBO C, and BCC.

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#20208

On Monday, April 30, 2012 8:11:56 PM UTC+1, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:17:29 AM UTC-7, Rui Maciel wrote:

> > If you were given the task to design a replacement for the C programming 
> > language intended to fix all its problems and shortcomings, what would you 
> > propopose?
> 
> What are C's design goals? I would say that they allow low-level manipulation and production of efficient code while opting for a terse syntax and portability.

...whilst still providing reasonable HLL capabilities. C's current survivability is more related to its ubiquitousness than too its original design goals.

> If we are interested in allowing better documentation, we should have a "Long Comment Begins" and "Long Comment Ends" in addtion to "short comment begins" and "short comment ends" "/*" and "*/" are fine for the latter.
> 
> If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly Language" syntax as an option.

never quite understood what "fake assembly language" was? What is it you want that FAL can provide but other syntax can't?

<snip>

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#20377

On Wednesday, May 2, 2012 1:22:50 AM UTC-7, nick_keigh...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2012 8:11:56 PM UTC+1, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:17:29 AM UTC-7, Rui Maciel wrote:
> 
> > > If you were given the task to design a replacement for the C programming 
> > > language intended to fix all its problems and shortcomings, what would you 
> > > propopose?
> > 
> > What are C's design goals? I would say that they allow low-level manipulation and production of efficient code while opting for a terse syntax and portability.
> 
> ...whilst still providing reasonable HLL capabilities. C's current survivability is more related to its ubiquitousness than too its original design goals.
> 
> > If we are interested in allowing better documentation, we should have a "Long Comment Begins" and "Long Comment Ends" in addtion to "short comment begins" and "short comment ends" "/*" and "*/" are fine for the latter.
> > 
> > If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly Language" syntax as an option.
> 
> never quite understood what "fake assembly language" was? What is it you want that FAL can provide but other syntax can't?
> 
> <snip>

Not so much "Can't" but "Doesn't".

Examples:
Divide capturing both the quotient and the remainder in registers.
Move capturing both the next destination address and the next source address in registers.
Swaping the contents of some memory location with the Accumulator or top of the stack.

You could easily invent syntaxes for each of these, but they would end up looking a great deal like assembly language.

Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has both the quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is hard to do this efficiently without resorting to assembly language (either directly or indirectly).

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#20379

On 2012-05-04, Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Divide capturing both the quotient and the remainder in registers.

<stdlib.h> has the div(), ldiv() and lldiv() functions.

> Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has both the
> quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is hard to do this
> efficiently without resorting to assembly language (either directly or
> indirectly).

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#20444

On Friday, May 4, 2012 1:41:35 AM UTC-7, Ike Naar wrote:
> On 2012-05-04, Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Divide capturing both the quotient and the remainder in registers.
> 
> <stdlib.h> has the div(), ldiv() and lldiv() functions.
> 
> > Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has both the
> > quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is hard to do this
> > efficiently without resorting to assembly language (either directly or
> > indirectly).

These are simply functions that MIGHT be implemented efficiently. They are useful, but not for such things as implementing an efficient multi-precision divide (doing 256-bit integers on a 64-bit machine, for instance).

Also, notice that no one has said anything about doing anything like this for data moves. In theory the same thing would work:
addrpair movem (addrpair ap, size_t move_size);
but pairs of addresses are often too large to put into an atomic unit that can be returned by functions.

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#20447

On 05/07/2012 04:11 AM, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Friday, May 4, 2012 1:41:35 AM UTC-7, Ike Naar wrote:
>> On 2012-05-04, Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>> Divide capturing both the quotient and the remainder in registers.
>>
>> <stdlib.h> has the div(), ldiv() and lldiv() functions.
>>
>>> Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has both the
>>> quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is hard to do this
>>> efficiently without resorting to assembly language (either directly or
>>> indirectly).
> 
> These are simply functions that MIGHT be implemented efficiently.

The entire language MIGHT be implemented efficiently. If the possibility
of inefficient implementation is unacceptable to you, C isn't for you,
nor is any other HLL. A fully conforming implementation of C can be
arbitrarily inefficient. The only way to ensure what you consider
acceptable efficiency is to do it yourself, in assembly. Of course, that
assumes that you know how to create highly efficient assembler.
-- 
James Kuyper

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#20452

בתאריך יום שני, 7 במאי 2012 12:18:14 UTC+1, מאת James Kuyper:
> 
> The entire language MIGHT be implemented efficiently. If the possibility
> of inefficient implementation is unacceptable to you, C isn't for you,
> nor is any other HLL. A fully conforming implementation of C can be
> arbitrarily inefficient. The only way to ensure what you consider
> acceptable efficiency is to do it yourself, in assembly. Of course, that
> assumes that you know how to create highly efficient assembler.
> 
You're entitled to assume that, given two arbitrary pointers to nul-terminated sequences of arbitrary length, strcmp() is the most efficient way of comparing them.
But of course it might not be the most efficient way of comparing two strings for equality. By constraining strings to be 64-bit aligned, and by always padding the terminating nul to make up a round figure of 8 bytes, on a 64-bit machine we can probably implement a strcmp() which is eight times faster. High level language X might well do that. C can't do that because strcmp("fred" + 2, "ed") has to be valid.
Then of course much of the time we simply want a binary yes / no. So if we store the string length, then most of the time we can get the answer in a single machine instruction. Algorithmic improvements generally beat micro-optimisation.

But it's unlikely that an 8 times speed up from string compares is really worth having. If it is worth having, you can always implement your own string type in C, and you probably don't even need to resort to the inline assembler to make it efficient. In practice, language X is almost always slower. The string compares might be faster, by things will happen like every string being allocated in dynamic memory, which will slow it down it the other functions.

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#20454

On 05/07/2012 08:41 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> בתאריך יום שני, 7 במאי 2012 12:18:14 UTC+1, מאת James Kuyper:
>>
>> The entire language MIGHT be implemented efficiently. If the possibility
>> of inefficient implementation is unacceptable to you, C isn't for you,
>> nor is any other HLL. A fully conforming implementation of C can be
>> arbitrarily inefficient. The only way to ensure what you consider
>> acceptable efficiency is to do it yourself, in assembly. Of course, that
>> assumes that you know how to create highly efficient assembler.
>>
> You're entitled to assume that, given two arbitrary pointers to nul-terminated sequences of arbitrary length, strcmp() is the most efficient way of comparing them.

That may be true, but if so, your entitlement is not derived from the C
standard, which says nothing about such matters. You haven't specified
whence your sense of entitlement derives, but the most plausible
argument I can think of for your assumption applies equally well to
div() being the most efficient way to simultaneously capture both the
quotient and the remainder.
-- 
James Kuyper

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#20459

Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:

> you're entitled to assume that, given two arbitrary pointers to
> nul-terminated sequences of arbitrary length, strcmp() is the
> most efficient way of comparing them.

I wouldn't assume that.  The author of strcmp() might have had
different criteria in mind.  For example, he might have optimized
for small code, or for code that can be proved to be correct, or
for code that could be written quickly (if he was in a hurry).

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#20742

בתאריך יום שני, 7 במאי 2012 17:31:07 UTC+1, מאת Ben Pfaff:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:
> 
> > you're entitled to assume that, given two arbitrary pointers to
> > nul-terminated sequences of arbitrary length, strcmp() is the
> > most efficient way of comparing them.
> 
> I wouldn't assume that.  The author of strcmp() might have had
> different criteria in mind.  For example, he might have optimized
> for small code, or for code that can be proved to be correct, or
> for code that could be written quickly (if he was in a hurry).
>
In the olden days you did hear horror stories about memcpy() being a simple byte by byte loop. But compilers have got more sophisticated these days.

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#20392

On 5/4/2012 12:41 AM, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 2, 2012 1:22:50 AM UTC-7, nick_keigh...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, April 30, 2012 8:11:56 PM UTC+1, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>>> On Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:17:29 AM UTC-7, Rui Maciel wrote:
>>
>>>> If you were given the task to design a replacement for the C programming
>>>> language intended to fix all its problems and shortcomings, what would you
>>>> propopose?
>>>
>>> What are C's design goals? I would say that they allow low-level manipulation and production of efficient code while opting for a terse syntax and portability.
>>
>> ...whilst still providing reasonable HLL capabilities. C's current survivability is more related to its ubiquitousness than too its original design goals.
>>
>>> If we are interested in allowing better documentation, we should have a "Long Comment Begins" and "Long Comment Ends" in addtion to "short comment begins" and "short comment ends" "/*" and "*/" are fine for the latter.
>>>
>>> If we are interested in low-level manipulation, how about a "Fake Assembly Language" syntax as an option.
>>
>> never quite understood what "fake assembly language" was? What is it you want that FAL can provide but other syntax can't?
>>
>> <snip>
>
> Not so much "Can't" but "Doesn't".
>
> Examples:
> Divide capturing both the quotient and the remainder in registers.
> Move capturing both the next destination address and the next source address in registers.
> Swaping the contents of some memory location with the Accumulator or top of the stack.
>
> You could easily invent syntaxes for each of these, but they would end up looking a great deal like assembly language.
>
> Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has both the quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is hard to do this efficiently without resorting to assembly language (either directly or indirectly).

most of these could be handled either by functions or by compiler 
intrinsics (which in turn look like functions).


the problem here is that often many such intrinsics in turn depend on:
which compiler is in use;
the target architecture;
the operating mode and compiler flags of said architecture;
...

this in turn often makes using compiler intrinsics nearly as dangerous 
(portability-wise) as using ASM, although it is often still a little 
cleaner than resorting to either raw ASM or inline ASM.


an alternative would be requiring the intrinsics to always be available 
(even if they would need to be emulated), but this is much less commonly 
done.

a major example of these sorts of intrinsics being the vector/SIMD 
extensions for MSVC and GCC, ...


IMO, it is "cleaner" to create a higher-level wrapper interface, which 
may in turn either use intrinsics if available, or revert to good old 
"normal logic code" otherwise.

for example, a wrapper can be written for doing vector and matrix math, 
which may used SIMD, or may just revert to scalar operations, depending 
on the availability of SIMD intrinsics.

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#20393

Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> writes:

> Virtually every processor that has a divide instruction has
> both the quotient and remainder available at one go, but it is
> hard to do this efficiently without resorting to assembly
> language (either directly or indirectly).

This is one rationale for the *div family of functions:

      7.20.6.2    The div, ldiv, and  lldiv functions

      Because C89 had implementation-defined semantics for
      division of signed integers when negative operands were
      involved, div and ldiv, and lldiv in C9X, were invented to
      provide well- specified semantics for signed integer
      division and remainder operations.  The semantics were
      adopted to be the same as in Fortran.  Since these
      functions return both the quotient and the remainder, they
      also serve as a convenient way of efficiently modeling
      underlying hardware that computes both results as part of
      the same operation.

...

      Now that C9X requires similar semantics for the division
      operator, the main reason for new programs to use div, ldiv
      or lldiv is to simultaneously obtain quotient and
      remainder.

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#20108

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you were given the task to design a replacement for the C programming 
> language intended to fix all its problems and shortcomings, what would you 
> propopose?

That the person assigning the task get their head examined.  :-)
-- 
Larry Jones

When you're SERIOUS about having fun, it's not much fun at all! -- Calvin

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#20109

Le 30/04/12 20:25, lawrence.jones@siemens.com a écrit :
> Rui Maciel<rui.maciel@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> If you were given the task to design a replacement for the C programming
>> language intended to fix all its problems and shortcomings, what would you
>> propopose?
>
> That the person assigning the task get their head examined.  :-)

C is perfect?

Trigraphs included?

Now, come on...

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