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Re: Struct Error

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bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

> On 29/01/2025 10:59, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 24/01/2025 14:37, Michael S wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 10:54:10 +0000
>>>> bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/01/2025 01:05, James Kuyper wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2025-01-22, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gcc 14.1 gives me an error compiling this code:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       struct vector;
>>>>>>>       struct scenet;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       struct vector {
>>>>>>>           double x;
>>>>>>>           double y;
>>>>>>>           double z;
>>>>>>>       };
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       struct scenet {
>>>>>>>           struct vector center;
>>>>>>>           double radius;
>>>>>>>           struct scenet (*child)[];
>>>>>>>       };
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6.7.6.2p2:  "The element type shall not be an incomplete or
>>>>>> function type."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have many draft versions of the C standard.  n2912.pdf, dated
>>>>>> 2022-06-08, says in 6.7.2.1.p3 about struct types that "... the
>>>>>> type is incomplete144) until immediately after the closing brace
>>>>>> of the list defining the content, and complete thereafter."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Therefore, struct scenet is not a complete type until the closing
>>>>>> brace of it's declaration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't this also be the case here:
>>>>>
>>>>>       struct scenet *child;
>>>>>      };
>>>>
>>>> Just to point out if it was not said already:  the problem is not
>>>> related specifically to recursive structures.  It applies to arrays
>>>> of incomplete types in all circumstances.
>>>>
>>>> struct bar;
>>>> struct bar (*bag)[]; // error
>>>> typedef struct bar (*bat)[]; // error
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone has yet explained why that is an error (other
>>> than C says it is), but not this:
>>>
>>>    struct bar *ptr;
>>>
>>> This is a pointer to an incomplete type.  Attempts to do ++ptr
>>> for example will fail later on if that struct has not yet been
>>> defined.
>>>
>>> So why not the same for the pointer-to-array versions?
>>
>> The question you should be asking is why did the original C
>> standards body make the rule they did?
>>
>> The answer might be because this exception to a simple and
>> general rule is almost never useful, and never necessary.
>
> Well, you never see such a thing in use, certainly.  I wonder why
> that is!
>
> When a language outlaws some particular construction, forcing
> people to stick to a particular idiom (the common use of a T* type
> to work with pointers and arrays instead of the more sensible and
> safer T(*)[]), then clearly you're not going to see such uses in
> the field.
>
> Although there are really two parts to it:  use of T(*)[]
> generally (outside of self-referential structs) is allowed, but
> that is still rare, presumably because the syntax is too unwieldy.
> Or people simply don't know about it, since everyone uses T*.

I didn't say this use case isn't used.  I said this use case is
almost never useful.

>> Considering that it has been 35 years since that original rule
>> was made, and 2025 is the first time the question has come up,
>> the indications are that the original decision was a good one.
>
> We don't know that.  Perhaps it comes up all the time, people
> realise they can't use such a construct, and use a different
> approach.

We don't know that there has never been a person 50 feet tall
either, but that doesn't mean there has been one.

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Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-22 16:14 +0000
  Re: Struct Error Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-01-22 20:05 +0000
    Re: Struct Error Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-01-22 21:00 +0000
  Re: Struct Error Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2025-01-22 20:08 +0000
  Re: Struct Error Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-22 22:27 +0000
  Re: Struct Error James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-22 20:05 -0500
    Re: Struct Error learningcpp1@gmail.com (m137) - 2025-01-23 03:49 +0000
      Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-22 23:15 -0800
      Re: Struct Error James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-23 03:37 -0500
    Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-22 23:31 -0800
    Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-23 10:54 +0000
      Re: Struct Error BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 14:58 -0600
        Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-24 00:51 +0000
          Re: Struct Error BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-01-24 00:27 -0600
          Re: Struct Error David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-24 09:45 +0100
            Re: Struct Error Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-01-24 20:31 +0000
              Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-24 22:53 +0000
              Re: Struct Error James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-24 20:53 -0500
          Re: Struct Error James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-24 08:43 -0500
            Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-24 23:32 +0000
      Re: Struct Error Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-23 23:50 +0000
        Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-24 00:37 +0000
          Re: Struct Error Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-24 00:57 +0000
            Re: Struct Error Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 17:23 -0800
            Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-24 01:27 +0000
      Re: Struct Error James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-24 08:24 -0500
      Re: Struct Error Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-24 16:37 +0200
        Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-26 19:14 +0000
          Re: Struct Error Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-26 23:14 +0200
          Re: Struct Error Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-01-27 04:05 +0000
            Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-27 20:19 +0000
          Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-29 02:59 -0800
            Re: Struct Error bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-01-29 11:36 +0000
              Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-30 11:51 -0800
            Re: Struct Error Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-01-29 07:32 -0500
              Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-29 07:52 -0800
  Re: Struct Error Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-22 23:11 -0800
  Re: Struct Error Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2025-02-02 20:35 -0800

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