Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.compilers
Subject	Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks
Date	2019-05-08 10:31 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<19-05-064@comp.compilers> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <19-04-023@comp.compilers> <19-04-037@comp.compilers> <19-04-046@comp.compilers> <19-05-052@comp.compilers> <19-05-059@comp.compilers>

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On 08/05/2019 02:27, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> Am 07.05.2019 um 16:29 schrieb David Brown:
>> On 29/04/2019 22:36, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
>>> Am 28.04.2019 um 23:49 schrieb David Brown:
>
>>>> This is exactly the same as mathematics.  The "square root" function,
>>>> for real numbers, is defined for non-negative numbers.  If someone asks
>>>> you for "sqrt(-4)", then the question is meaningless.  Any answer given
>>>> can be considered incorrect - equally, any answer given can be
>>>> considered correct.
>>>
>>> That's a cheap excuse for poor language design, aimed at sloppy compiler
>>> implementation.
>>>
>>
>> You are saying that mathematics is a poor language design?
>
> No, I criticize the lack of restricted (non-negative...) types for such
> purposes.

OK.  Again, I'd note that different languages have different design
requirements and different uses.  (Although I agree that such specific
ranged types are nice, and are a feature of Pascal that I miss in C.)

>
>
>> Different languages have different purposes and trade-offs.  This is
>> important to accept when discussing them.
>
> No doubt :-)
>
> So I wonder why the topic (optimization...) drifted into a discussion of
> almost only the C language.
>

C is a language that many people know, one for which optimisations are
very important, and where certain kinds of optimisations can be
controversial - and therefore lead to discussions.  If everyone is happy
with a language's definitions, behaviours, and typical optimisations,
there'd be no arguments and few posts!

But by all means, add more about Pascal or any other language you like
to this thread - it could be interesting for many of us.

> I also wonder where runtime efficiency nowadays is really so important,
> that safety and security breaches are considered acceptable?
>

This depends on the use of the code.

I have many times noted that C is often a poor choice of language.
There was a time when it was the best, or only, language suitable for a
wide range of uses.  This is no longer the case.  I personally use it
for small-systems embedded programming, and the runtime efficiency /is/
important.  But for PC programming, I use mostly Python (I used to use
Delphi more).  Pick a language that makes sense for the job, and gives
the trade-offs that suit your needs.

And often there is no way to handle run-time errors sensibly anyway.
You don't want your car brakes to give you a message "Your braking
system has encountered an integer overflow.  Please report this error to
your car dealer".  You want the brake software developers to be
/absolutely/ sure that overflows can't happen - and then there is no
point in run-time checks.

C is not going away.  But it would be good to see less C code used, but
more care used with the C code that is written.  That includes testing
with tools that do run-time checks, but not having them included in the
final product.  It is the run-time efficiency of the underlying C code
in libraries, VMs, etc., that makes the speed of most checked languages
acceptable.

>
>> Every language has its oddities, and there are always things that some
>> people thing are terrible design.  For example, it is truly weird that
>> "const x : int = 10;" is one of Delphi's way of making "x" a variable
>> with an initialised value.  (In older Delphi, it was the only way!)
>
> This makes the different evolution visible:
> Pascal started as a tutorial language, C as a production language.
> Evolution added features of great demand - in the case of Pascal many
> features had to be added to Wirth's academic language(s) before it
> became usable outside education.
>

Yes.  I realise that this oddity is "for historical reasons".  The same
applies to a great many oddities in C.

> I definitely prefer a safe language, which can be tuned later for
> efficieny. Lowering requirements and checks in specific parts of a
> program is doable and acceptable easier than introducing requirements
> that were not anticipated in the basic language design.
>
> DoDi
> [These days I write just about everything in python.  Occasionally
> I'll rewrite something in C if python can't do it but that's pretty
> rare.  The python implementation everyone uses is written in C but it
> does a pretty good job of managing storage and arithmetic. -John]

That's the way to do it.

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Re: Optimization techniques David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-25 21:58 +0200
  Re: Optimization techniques Kaz Kylheku <847-115-0292@kylheku.com> - 2019-04-26 00:18 +0000
    Re: Optimization techniques David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-28 23:49 +0200
      Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-29 00:31 +0100
        Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-29 17:08 +0200
          Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-04-29 18:10 +0200
            Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-30 14:46 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-01 13:53 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-02 11:29 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-03 00:48 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Martin Ward <martin@gkc.org.uk> - 2019-05-03 10:52 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2019-05-04 17:44 -0400
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2019-05-05 17:10 -0400
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-06 08:14 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2019-05-11 22:25 -0700
                Re: not a lot of memory, was Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-03 12:45 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-03 13:29 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-03 23:10 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-04 10:45 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-05 11:14 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2019-05-05 20:44 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2019-05-06 10:15 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 11:04 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior "Nuno Lopes" <nuno.lopes@ist.utl.pt> - 2019-05-07 22:38 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-08 01:14 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 09:55 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2019-05-08 19:08 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-08 01:42 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 10:16 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-09 01:15 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-09 21:56 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 10:03 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-09 09:19 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Kaz Kylheku <847-115-0292@kylheku.com> - 2019-05-10 03:38 +0000
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-08 14:37 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Christopher F Clark <christopher.f.clark@compiler-resources.com> - 2019-05-06 05:05 -0400
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2019-05-05 17:38 -0400
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-06 13:07 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 14:01 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-06 01:15 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2019-05-06 14:40 +0100
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 15:05 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 10:18 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Jan Ziak <0xe2.0x9a.0x9b@gmail.com> - 2019-05-06 05:39 -0700
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 15:42 +0200
                Re: Bounds checking, Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-06 16:32 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2019-05-04 17:59 -0400
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-02 16:51 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-02 20:04 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-03 17:23 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-03 21:10 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Martin Ward <martin@gkc.org.uk> - 2019-05-06 13:25 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2019-05-06 16:32 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 16:03 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Martin Ward <martin@gkc.org.uk> - 2019-05-08 13:16 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2019-05-08 15:13 -0400
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior "Robin Vowels" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2019-05-07 01:22 +1000
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 16:05 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-05-02 22:22 +0200
          Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-04-29 18:15 +0100
            Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-30 15:48 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-01 12:40 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-02 17:27 +0200
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-02 18:59 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 16:16 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Martin Ward <martin@gkc.org.uk> - 2019-05-02 14:54 +0100
      Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2019-04-29 22:36 +0200
        Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 16:29 +0200
          Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2019-05-08 02:27 +0200
            Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 10:31 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2019-05-08 22:50 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks "Robin Vowels" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2019-05-11 19:26 +1000
              Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2019-05-11 22:43 -0700
                Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-12 20:17 +0200
          Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-08 14:58 +0100
            Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-08 23:02 +0200
              Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-05-09 18:28 +0100
                Re: Optimization techniques and runtime checks David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-09 22:07 +0200
      Re: Optimization techniques Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2019-04-30 18:24 -0700
        Re: Optimization techniques David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-01 09:20 +0200
          Re: Optimization techniques Kaz Kylheku <847-115-0292@kylheku.com> - 2019-05-02 17:40 +0000
          Re: Optimization techniques and error detection Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2019-05-03 10:16 -0700
          Re: Optimization techniques "Robin Vowels" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2019-05-07 01:42 +1000
  Re: Optimization techniques Kaz Kylheku <847-115-0292@kylheku.com> - 2019-04-26 02:26 +0000
    Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-04-29 00:12 +0200
      Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior Kaz Kylheku <847-115-0292@kylheku.com> - 2019-05-02 17:18 +0000
        Re: Optimization techniques and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-05-07 16:38 +0200

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