Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.compilers
Subject	Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la
Date	2012-03-12 07:42 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<12-03-027@comp.compilers> (permalink)
References	<12-03-012@comp.compilers> <12-03-014@comp.compilers> <12-03-022@comp.compilers>

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BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote:

(snip)

> but, I think the issue mostly is that both "innovation" and "pure
> research" are often over-rated, and what is needed at this point may not
> be the creation of fundamentally new (or even entirely consistent)
> languages, but rather refinement, integration, and adaptation to new
> domains.

It seems to me that this is a big reason why we have the different
languages that we do, and why we will never converge onto only one.

Different needs are better met, in some cases, with different ways of
expressing those needs.

(snip on closures)

> so, better I think is trying to invest effort in creating "solid"
> languages which can effectively integrate much of what exists and seems
> to work well in-general, even at the cost of many of the more
> academically inclined are liable to make accusations of "blub" at such
> things (mostly due to things like syntactic and semantic similarity with
> mainstream languages).

PL/I, the original all-in-one language, is still used, but much less
often than some others. Among its goals, was to replace Fortran.

Now, with Fortran 2003 and Fortran 2008, a large fraction of the PL/I
features have been included, and more.

(snip)
> I also tend to see needless minimalism as, well, needless. simpler
> syntax doesn't mean a simpler or easier to use language, and more so
> doesn't mean a simpler implementation.

That seems, to me, hard to say. Too many features make a language too
hard to remember, requiring more reference to documentation while
programming. But also, as you indicate, needless minimalism doesn't
help. It can make it harder to do some simple operations.

> some people also make accusations of "keeping every onion", but as I
> see it, keeping common syntax and features by no means implies
> that one slavishly follows every possible rule.

PL/I included many features from Fortran, COBOL, and ALGOL, but
overall kept a nice, consistent, usage. Very few of what seem to be
arbitrary restrictions.

Fortran, on the other hand, even as it has evolved has kept many
restrictions that seem strange.

(snip)

> but, many people apparently see a C-family syntax and automatically
> judge it negatively as a result, whereas I happen to feel that the
> syntax works fairly well and personally see no "obviously better"
> solution (either functionally or aesthetically).

Well, reserved words do make it hard to extend a language and
stay compatible with older programs.

(snip)

-- glen

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Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:52 +0000
  Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-03-08 00:44 -0600
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-03-14 09:51 +0100
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-03-19 08:00 -0700
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-03-21 11:53 +0100
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-22 21:17 +0100
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-03-23 19:45 +0000
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? eijkhout@tacc.utexas.edu (Victor Eijkhout) - 2012-03-19 15:42 -0600
      Re: HPC and parallel programming, was Have we reached the asymptotic Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2012-03-21 10:28 +0000
  Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la SLK Systems <slkpg3@gmail.com> - 2012-03-08 10:21 -0500
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-09 18:16 -0700
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-12 07:42 +0000
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-13 02:27 -0700
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-14 05:19 +0000
            Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-15 00:06 -0700
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming la torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-03-14 09:24 +0100
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages? "robin" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2012-03-11 21:09 +1100
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@2ndquadrant.com> - 2012-06-06 17:38 +0000
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-06 22:40 +0000
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-06-07 08:00 -0400
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@2ndquadrant.com> - 2012-06-07 17:21 +0000
            Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-08 22:31 +0000
            Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Martin Ward <martin@gkc.org.uk> - 2012-06-10 10:42 +0100
            Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-06-10 13:36 -0700
              Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages "robin" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2012-06-11 20:21 +1000
              Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@aol.com> - 2012-06-11 18:18 +0200
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> - 2012-06-08 16:16 +0200
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-06-07 14:20 +0100
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> - 2012-06-07 16:06 -0400
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-08 22:47 +0000
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages "robin" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2012-06-08 00:03 +1000
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@2ndquadrant.com> - 2012-06-07 18:01 +0000
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages Lieven Marchand <mal@wyrd.be> - 2012-06-09 17:24 +0200
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-06-11 13:41 +0200
        Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-11 22:13 +0000
          Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming languages "robin" <robin51@dodo.com.au> - 2012-06-13 01:16 +1000
  Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-03-08 19:54 +0000
  Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-03-08 17:41 -0500
  Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Ian Lance Taylor <ian@airs.com> - 2012-03-08 17:02 -0800
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Cameron McInally <cameron.mcinally@nyu.edu> - 2012-03-08 23:40 -0500
      Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? thomas.mertes@gmx.at - 2012-03-11 07:33 -0700
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Michael Dunlavey <mikedunlavey44@gmail.com> - 2012-03-09 16:07 -0500
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-09 21:14 -0700
  Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? Rock Brentwood <federation2005@netzero.com> - 2012-03-17 12:31 -0700
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-18 02:35 -0700
    Re: Have we reached the asymptotic plateau of innovation in programming language design? "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-18 20:35 +0100

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