Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > alt.sys.pdp11 > #5624

Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?)

From Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com>
Newsgroups alt.sys.pdp11, alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?)
Date 2024-11-15 16:26 +0300
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <fd6b092e-4849-0026-c3b8-ffc3a018c00a@googlemail.com> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <7wh68b9piw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <9efb03c7-65dc-8aa0-989f-8998145b9275@googlemail.com> <7wcyiy8fh2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <b18f78b6-837a-8a6e-cb37-0beb121b4949@googlemail.com> <vh5t1e$310hc$4@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

Show all headers | View raw

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] - view raw

On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:34:15 +0300, Robin Haberkorn wrote:
>
>> ... in the end I am trying to sell the
>> idea that it went into the wrong direction and we should all be using
>> interactive TECOs nowadays. ;-)
>
> Surely Lisp is a much more versatile and extensible language than TECO. I
> just wish ELisp had continuations, but you can’t have everything. ;)
>
With "interactive TECO" I don't just mean some REPL prompt, even not in 
video mode while showing the buffer contents. I mean immediate execution 
of source code while you type it and see the results immediately -- the 
way it was realized in Video TECO and later by me in SciTECO.
For such an approach, you don't want a verbose language like Lisp. That 
wouldn't work of course. You want a terse language like TECO, where the 
most frequently used commands are just one or two letters/key presses.
Just like in the modern screen editors. They are also operating on 
commands, very short ones, one or two key presses or short key chords. But 
they don't show them to you on a command line, and their "language" is not 
Turing complete.
So I thought, why not take this lovely language we have -- TECO -- and 
turn it into the screen editor language by immediately executing it, thus 
abolishing the difference between movement and editing commands and editor 
scripting.

And while I had to extend the language significantly, it grew nicely. 
Further extensions are planned, like floating point integers as a second 
numeric data type. Lots of commands are still missing as well - most of 
that will be adressed in the next major release, which will also move it 
a bit closer to the DEC TECOs.
A language design problem is also that it's not straight forward to write 
macros that receive string arguments, which will furthermore require to 
turn macros into something like coroutines, at least if you want 
immediate execution as we are used to in SciTECO. Not to mention that 
SciTECO syntax prescribes the number of string arguments, so you will never be able 
to write MqSTRING ARG$. There would have to be ugly E1qFOO$ and 
E2qFOO$BAR$ hacks. But we might allow @Mq/FOO/ since @ gives enough hints 
to the parser.
It's also problematic to *return* strings from macros.
Currently, you can push the codepoints on the stack (yes, it's stack based 
and yes, it supports Unicode).
But that's cumbersome. ITS TECO used pointers. Perhaps that's a solution. 
It can be made safe as well, just opaque pointers as a new data type. But 
it requires a significant departure from TECO-11 and its modern clones,
which I still try to be similar to, even if not aiming for compatibility.

Best regards,
Robin

PS: I of course know why back in the 1970s nobody tried anything similar. 
You do need additional memory to maintain the undo structures. By modern 
standards very modest amounts, but considering minimal available RAM sizes 
back then, probably too much.
A few years later, it was already possible as demonstrated Video TECO, 
which ran on VMS.

Back to alt.sys.pdp11 | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-12 16:50 +0300
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-12 08:03 -0800
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-12 20:49 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-12 20:02 +0000
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-12 12:47 -0800
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-14 22:20 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-14 23:50 +0000
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2024-11-12 15:55 -0500
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-12 20:09 -0800
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-13 11:30 +0300
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-13 10:25 -0800
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2024-11-13 14:36 -0500
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-13 15:12 -0800
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 06:29 +0000
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-14 22:24 +0000
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-13 11:46 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2024-11-13 09:00 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-13 15:30 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-13 10:29 -0800
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-13 10:31 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-13 19:11 +0000
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 10:00 +0300
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2024-12-02 23:58 +0100
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2024-12-03 16:38 -0500
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-12-04 08:24 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2024-12-04 17:48 +0100
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-12-04 18:36 +0000
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2025-01-08 17:19 +0100
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2025-01-09 08:29 +0000
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-13 14:28 +0000
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 09:44 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 07:03 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 10:34 +0300
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 08:05 +0000
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 08:25 +0000
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 17:42 +0300
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 17:09 +0300
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-16 15:37 +0000
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2024-12-03 00:07 +0100
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-12-03 18:55 +0300
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2024-12-04 17:45 +0100
          Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-14 22:19 +0000
            Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-11-14 14:34 -0800
              Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 00:03 +0000
            Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-14 16:23 -0800
              Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 01:52 +0000
            Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-15 16:26 +0300
              Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-15 11:25 -0800
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 04:47 +0300
              Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 22:13 +0000
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-11-15 15:08 -0800
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 05:11 +0300
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 10:33 +0300
                Re: Interactive Development (was Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there?) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 21:53 +0000
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 06:51 +0000
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 10:35 +0300
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 07:56 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-14 22:26 +0000
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-11-15 07:24 +0000
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-14 10:14 +0300
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-14 07:55 +0000
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-14 22:11 +0000
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-11-15 01:40 +0100
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 01:56 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-11-15 14:28 +0100
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 21:58 +0000
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-11-16 01:18 +0100
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2024-11-15 15:21 -1000
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 01:52 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-11-16 03:03 +0100
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 03:33 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-16 15:14 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2024-11-16 22:21 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "John H. Reinhardt" <johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org> - 2024-11-16 18:01 -0600
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-17 18:12 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2024-11-17 18:57 +0000
                Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-11-16 21:05 +0100
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-15 15:49 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-15 16:51 +0300
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 22:01 +0000
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2024-11-15 15:41 -0800
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2024-11-16 22:32 +0000
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 05:03 +0300
            Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 03:35 +0000
              Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 10:20 +0300
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-15 22:10 +0000
        Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Robin Haberkorn <robin.haberkorn@googlemail.com> - 2024-11-16 05:09 +0300
          Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-16 03:40 +0000
  Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-11-18 16:57 -0500
    Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2024-11-19 14:26 +0000
      Re: Any interesting PDP/TECO photos out there? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-11-19 11:51 -0500

csiph-web